I got the idea that the "pure of heart" potion, the "pure of heart" part was just....um... I can't think of the word..... when something is not as it's labeled.
05-27-2013, 10:06 AM
(05-26-2013, 05:31 PM)Lou Wrote: Part of me thinks its just absurd to put this much analysis into a TV show.I totally agree it's absurd, but that doesn't mean it is not fun. (05-26-2013, 05:31 PM)Lou Wrote: Anyway, I like your theories. And they sparked another idea in me. Could it be argued that killing Aunt Marie was sort of knee jerk reaction. Like if you walked into your kitchen and saw a .... rattlesnake. Even if he doesn't know Marie he might fear or hate her because she is a Grimm.Actually, what I was going to say is that Eric appears known for knee-jerk reactions, but this would be totally out of character for Renard. However, it's possible that Renard acted on orders from someone above him who made the knee-jerk reaction. That would work in your scenario. But on your question, "but he knows Nick is a Grimm", here are a list of questions that I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to. 1. When did Renard learn that Nick is a grimm? (In one of the first scenes of the pilot, Nick recognized Adalind was a hexenbiest, so it's possible that she saw that Nick was a grimm and told Renard). This is an important question, because it tells us at what point did Renard begin crafting a plan to convert Nick to his cause. If it was a long time before the attack on Aunt Marie, the attack may have been related to Renard converting Nick. If he just realized Nick was a grimm when Adalind did, then the attack on Aunt Marie is likely irrelevant to Renard's intentions with Nick. 2. How did Renard know that Aunt Marie or Nick had the key? This one has really bothers me. How did they know that Aunt Marie gave the key to Nick? 3. Why did a bastard Royal/half hexenbiest and a grimm happen to both be in the same city? Mighty big coincidence, especially since grimm appear to be very rare and a Royal hexenbiest may prove rarer still. I doubt I'll get a good answer for any of the above questions for the simple reasons that I doubt the writers knew where they were going when they originally did the pilot.
05-27-2013, 09:11 PM
(05-27-2013, 06:27 AM)Lou Wrote: I got the idea that the "pure of heart" potion, the "pure of heart" part was just....um... I can't think of the word..... when something is not as it's labeled. I like to pretend that it was a moral detox potion, lol. It gave Renard a "clean slate" but that doesn't mean he won't dirty his soul again as soon as possible. Quote:1. When did Renard learn that Nick is a grimm? (In one of the first scenes of the pilot, Nick recognized Adalind was a hexenbiest, so it's possible that she saw that Nick was a grimm and told Renard). This is an important question, because it tells us at what point did Renard begin crafting a plan to convert Nick to his cause. If it was a long time before the attack on Aunt Marie, the attack may have been related to Renard converting Nick. If he just realized Nick was a grimm when Adalind did, then the attack on Aunt Marie is likely irrelevant to Renard's intentions with Nick. I'll speculate on some of this, HellJacket. 1) Renard has been fairly blase about having a Grimm working for him. This might mean that he became aware of Nick's abilities early on. But he does have an extraordinary poker face, so he could have just as easily found out through Adalind like you theorized. There is also the chance that Renard knew exactly who Nick was because his parents were known Grimm. (Hm. Is "Grimm" plural and singular? Adding an "s" to that seems awkward.) 2) If I'm remembering correctly, Monroe told Nick about the legend of the keys. Grimm found the treasure and hid it from the Royals. The keys were made as maps to the treasure, so the Grimm had the keys made. Maybe the keys were protected by Grimm families and/or passed down through them? 3) Either it's coincidence (lol) or Renard could have pulled strings to be in Portland. Maybe he knew Nick was going to work there or he got Nick to work there somehow. If it is coincidence, it's a heck of a lucky one. "I can feed the caterpillar, I can whisper through the chrysalis, but what hatches follows its own nature and is beyond me."
-- Hannibal (TV show)
05-27-2013, 10:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-27-2013, 10:41 PM by grimmfreak.)
in regards to when Renard knew about Nick, my guess would be that when Nick applied to the Portland PD thew Captain saw who his parents were and pulled strings to make sure he was assigned to his precinct. Anything before would be too much trouble for the captain to go to. Anything after would be too much coincidence.
Also, from what Kelly said when she was on the show, and things others have said, I'm sure Nicks dad was not a Grimm but was a Kehrseite (regular guy who knew of the Grimm/Wesen world.) If you want a specific source I will post in the spoilers section where exactly I know it is said and who said it.
05-28-2013, 06:31 AM
@GrimmFreak,
That is exactly what I thought. Till...... There is some episode, I'm sorry I can't remember which one, but from what Renard says, it doesn't look like he knows anything about Nick's parents. Later on in the show he is shown on his computer reading the old newspaper article about Nick's parents dying in a car crash. However, in another episode, when Renard gives Nick his key back, he says something like he has been protecting Nick for longer than Nick can imagine. Could be just a throw-a-way line, or it could mean since the day he learned Nick was a Grimm, or it could mean before he came to Portland. With Renard it's probably impossible to tell. As far as coincidences go, judging by what's going on in Portland. The numbers of Weson, Hexenbiests, and Grimms are much higher than one would expect. Or as I've speculated in another thread, Portland is just very attractive to Wesons. Either way, it appears it's not unlikely to run into anything.
05-28-2013, 09:08 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2013, 09:10 AM by HellJacket.)
(05-27-2013, 09:11 PM)pale boy Wrote: I'll speculate on some of this, HellJacket.There is a problem with these two positions though. According to Kelly, Nick's mother, there's no way to tell if someone is a grimm until they begin manifesting powers. Therefore, the earliest possible date that Renard could be CERTAIN that Nick was/is a grimm is when Nick saw Adalind vogue. Anything before that would be speculation that could prove a worthless gamble for Renard. Even if the captain knew that Nick was from a family of grimm, he's pretty much gambling that Nick becomes a grimm. Renard makes a comment to Adalind's mother I believe, that he had invested too much time in Nick to just let him leave Portland. Now, if Renard learned that Nick was a grimm only when Aunt Marie arrived, how much time has he really spent on him? A few phone calls over season 1 and 2, and that's about it. If Nick joining the same police department as Renard was a coincidence, then most everything Renard has done with Nick has simply been in line with being his boss (i.e., not much extra time that he wouldn't otherwise have spent). So what we have is evidence that supports your comment on (3) above, as well as evidence that disagrees with it. Though, maybe having an ally grimm is valuable enough that it may be worth the gamble.
05-28-2013, 11:11 AM
(05-28-2013, 06:31 AM)Lou Wrote: @GrimmFreak, I remember when the captain looked at the report, that was season 2 episode 2 i believe. I think the comments your referring to, if they were in the same episode, might have been the captain playing dumb... I'll have to rewatch it sometime to confirm.
05-28-2013, 11:42 AM
(05-28-2013, 06:31 AM)Lou Wrote: As far as coincidences go, judging by what's going on in Portland. The numbers of Weson, Hexenbiests, and Grimms are much higher than one would expect.I'm curious, how many wessen would you expect in Portland? We do not have another data set to compare the wessen distribution of Portland to. Also, since this show is about Nick's wessen cases, we are also biased at Portland's wessen population in that regard. Not every single one of Nick's cases is wessen-related. However, those are the only ones we see, because that's the focus of the show. Therefore, I can't say whether Nick and Renard being in Portland is a coincidence, or if there is an exterior force that causes wessen, Royals, and grimm to congregate towards Portland.
05-28-2013, 11:52 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2013, 11:54 AM by Adriano Neres Rodrigues.)
(05-28-2013, 09:08 AM)HellJacket Wrote:(05-27-2013, 09:11 PM)pale boy Wrote: I'll speculate on some of this, HellJacket.There is a problem with these two positions though. According to Kelly, Nick's mother, there's no way to tell if someone is a grimm until they begin manifesting powers. Therefore, the earliest possible date that Renard could be CERTAIN that Nick was/is a grimm is when Nick saw Adalind vogue. Anything before that would be speculation that could prove a worthless gamble for Renard. Even if the captain knew that Nick was from a family of grimm, he's pretty much gambling that Nick becomes a grimm. Hi HellJacket. Everything we are doing here is speculation. And speculating about somethings that happend in the grimm universe, including the plot around the seven keys, I believe it is safe to assume that the royal families are tracking (or at list trying to track) the seven keys since the beginning and trying to get all of then. Thinking like that, I believe it is safe to assume that the royal families knew same how that one of the keys was with Nick's family. Just speculating , Nicks family had under it's guard one of the keys and then coins, two powerful artifacts in grimm universe. Two powerful artifacts with under just one grimm family... this must be more than just a grimm family... this family must have something more (of course, I am imagining there are other grimm around there...). So, just speculating, I believe it is safe to assume that because of this two artifacts, Nick's family is too important to be left out of the radar by the royal families. If those speculations are correctly, it is not out of the context assume that Renard knew Nick's family since the begging (maybe even before they start working together). And even if Nick was not a grimm (I mean, had no grimm powers, as you sad: "According to Kelly, Nick's mother, there's no way to tell if someone is a grimm until they begin manifesting powers."), having someone from Nick's family around and preferentially as an ally would be very important for what ever Renard want's. What mean is, Renard and Nick in the same city can be coincidence. But it also can be part of Renard's plan for something else.
05-28-2013, 12:11 PM
(05-28-2013, 11:52 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: . . . I believe it is safe to assume that the royal families . . .Here are some general points for deductive reasoning. You have the ability to assume anything. You also have the ability to believe any assumption. However, it is never safe to assume anything. Speculation is always fine. It is simply putting forth possible theories to explain facts. However, as paraphrased from the great Sherlock Holmes, twisting facts to suit speculation though is not fine, and runs counter to deductive reasoning. Alas, all I'm doing is showing that many of the facts of the Grimm universe are inconsistent. This could be explained that the facts (most of which involve hearsay) are unreliable. It could also be explained by the writers being careless. In any case though, all I can do is show that the facts are inconsistent. Though, if I show the facts are inconsistent throughout the series, that would support that the writers are careless/dumb. Though, how "logical" is the writing is ultimately of little value to how much I actually enjoy the show. So, whether Renard and Nick being in the same city is a coincidence or the result of an exterior force can be true, especially where we have so few facts. |
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