Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition)

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Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - HellJacket - 10-11-2013

It looks like some moderator deleted my previous thread. I shall not use names, especially offensive ones, mainly because I can't prove which one did it. However, I am reposting two posts from that thread in case anyone would like to discuss the topic at hand.

I've been thinking. Wessen have two distinct woge forms: (1) when their form is only visible to grimm/other wessen, and (2) when they can be viewed by humans. The writers on the show are pretty inconsistent between when (1) applies and when (2) applies. Monroe, for instance, argued (1) happens when a wessen are emotional or stressed out (correct me if I'm remembering wrong). Monroe then argued (2) happened when a wessen was "really pissed off." Though, Bud did a (2) woge without appearing angry, and only stressed out. But this brings us to the point of this thread.

Let's assume grimm do have a distinct woge form that allows wessen to recognize them as grimm. While there are problems with this position, it's clearly better then every single other alternative I've seen discussed or contemplated myself (e.g., smell, weird feeling, grimm aura, Nick's quizzical look when wessen woge, etc.). Wessen recognize Nick using his (1) woge form. However, what circumstances may occur that cause him a (2) woge form (e.g., where Juliette could see his true form)?

Apparently, Monroe's comment that (2) woge form occurs when a wessen is angry does not apply. It didn't apply to Bud, and we've seen Nick angry a number of times (e.g., when Nick went after Renard because of his "relationship" with Juliette). So, I'm curious what circumstances for Nick may cause anyone to see Nick's (2) woge form.

I'm guessing that Nick may have an "awakening" or "quickening" in the future. This is where Nick gets his true "grimm powers." This awakening may coincide with Nick performing a (2) woge.

/Baseless speculation
/There is no "right" answer for responding to this post, since maybe I'm smarter than the writers on the show, and they haven't even thought of this yet, or are ducking the question until the series finale

The following post is my list of Grimm Woge Evidence

I've been meaning to post a thread compiling all the evidence about how wessen recognize grimm (i.e. Nick). I also want to do this because I rarely see the best evidence talked about by anyone on the forum. So, in the interest of discussion (and providing a valuable resource for denigrating crappy theories), here's my list. I'm going to post both positive and negative evidence, even though I think negative evidence is really crappy evidence and usually used by people who suck at logic. Feel free to post any facts that I miss. I'm also going to post any rational inferences (RI) that may be made from the evidence. For the record, there may be multiple rationale inferences that are even contradictory. Without having more facts, it's impossible to definitively state what is or is not the case.

1. The Genio Innocuo (tortoise-wessen) on the Galapagos Islands who encountered the grimm did not immediately fear Nick's ancestor.

RI: Whatever sensory manifestation wessen receive of grimm, it is not "objectively" offensive. This may rule out terrible smells or that grimm take the form of a grimm reaper (since images of death are a pretty universally feared image by groups, if not necessarily individuals).

2. Aunt Marie tells Nick in the pilot that now that he can see wessen, "he's vulnerable."

RI: The above clearly supports a connection between Nick's "second sight" and wessen recognition of him. However, since it was stated in the pilot, that does raise the issue that it may be suspect as valid evidence (see my other post). For the record, just because something was said in the pilot does not make it wrong or the opposite conclusion correct. It just means the writers have no reason to maintain continuity with the rest of the series based on what happens or is said in the pilot.

3. The people responsible for killing Nick's father and his mother's "friend" took the woman's head, because they thought they had killed a grimm.

RI: There appears to be no convenient method for identifying grimm post-mortem. (or maybe when they realized the head didn't belong to a grimm, they buried it in the nearest hole)

4. Nick tells Hank he doesn't know how wessen recognize him.

5. Nick tells Hank maybe wessen can smell him.

6. Ariel, the Damonfeuer, picked Nick out of a crowded audience from being on a stage while in her changed form.

7. The Klaustreich who transformed in front of Nick at the front door and who was looking away at the time, did not recognize Nick was a grimm.

8. The Seltenvogel recognized Nick was a grimm from across a crowded shopping center.

9. The teenage coyotl freaked out while in her wessen form when she recognized Nick. She appeared far more scared of Nick than the band of coyotles outside the bar.

10. Monroe comments that the vast majority of wessen have never seen a grimm, but so far, every wessen has been able to recognize Nick's nature.

11. (Negative Evidence) Rosalee and Monroe recognized through their sense of smell that someone was in Nick's house when they come upon him in the season 2 premiere, but make no mention of the person being a grimm.

12. The bauerschwein whose brothers were killed by Angelina was afraid when he recognized Nick was a grimm, despite even saying how bauerschwein and grimm families have never had problems with each other.

13. Bees apparently like Nick (i.e. a grimm). Though, later, they disliked him. It raises the question how drone bees can recognize Nick.

While technically, every time a wessen transforms and provides a fearful look towards Nick is evidence, I'm not going to list all those instances for efficiency sake.

Feel free to note any facts above that are wrong or should be included or list any RI that you feel should be considered.

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - the-epic-prince - 10-11-2013

Well, personally I think that the inconsistencies in Monroe's explanation for the woge is because the average layperson (or in the case laywesen) Wouldn't be able to explain it fully, just as I would not be fully able to explain stuff like human genetics. They take what they've personally experienced and then attempt to translate it from their own experience. I think that there hasn't been a whole lot of studies into the woge phenomenon.
It would be a bit of a stretch to say Monroe knows how all wesen woges work.

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - HellJacket - 10-11-2013

(10-11-2013, 08:37 PM)the-epic-prince Wrote: Well, personally I think that the inconsistencies in Monroe's explanation for the woge is because the average layperson (or in the case laywesen) Wouldn't be able to explain it fully, just as I would not be fully able to explain stuff like human genetics.

While an interesting possibility, Monroe could verify whether wessen identify grimm using any of the five senses. Really, the only valid explanation where Monroe couldn't explain it would involve a "6th sense" that requires you to experience that special sense in order to articulate it. The fact that Nick is guessing "smell" means that said conversation hasn't happened yet.

In your genetics analogy, while a layperson could not explain how genetic inhibitors and other types of genes work, a layperson could explain how that there is a thing called DNA, and people inherit this DNA from their parents. Monroe (or any other wessen, like Rosalee) could narrow down the possibilities on how they identify a grimm. However, the fact that none of them have means there is a reason why not (besides the obvious reason that the writers haven't figured it out yet).

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - Gretel Hanselsister - 10-12-2013

I think I can show you how Wesen see Grimms Cool

In S2E10 "the hour of death" you see Monroe's fairy tale book for Wesen children, and I think it's perfect to show everyone how Wesen see Grimms. Because pictures on paper can't look different depending who's looking at them.

You see? They look dark, black or grey or colorless at least. And the victim in both cases is in Woge, I think this is required to recognize Grimms.

The Genio Innocuo at first weren't afraid of Grimms, colorless don't has to be horrible.

However, it's possible that Endezeichen-Grimms look different than "normal" ones, but I think it's only a matter of attitude what kind of Grimm you are.

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - the-epic-prince - 10-12-2013

@Gretel Hanselsister

I think it was said that the Endezeichen-Grimms dressed like that.

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - HellJacket - 10-12-2013

(10-12-2013, 02:28 AM)Gretel Hanselsister Wrote: I think I can show you how Wesen see Grimms
In S2E10 "the hour of death" you see Monroe's fairy tale book for Wesen children, and I think it's perfect to show everyone how Wesen see Grimms. Because pictures on paper can't look different depending who's looking at them.

. . .

You see? They look dark, black or grey or colorless at least. And the victim in both cases is in Woge, I think this is required to recognize Grimms.

This doesn't necessarily identify how wessen recognize them. This drawing could be a "moral" depiction, rather than an accurate physical manifestation of a grimm woge. For argument's sake, let's say wessen identify grimm by hearing. That would be very difficult to depict in a drawing, but the illustrator would likely still depict them as monsters.

If you want a real life analogous example, look at how vikings are traditionally depicted with horns coming out of their helmets. Christians did this to make them look like devils. However, the truth is that no viking helmets had horns (which would make it very easy for enemy combatants to remove the helmets in battle).

(10-12-2013, 02:28 AM)Gretel Hanselsister Wrote: The Genio Innocuo at first weren't afraid of Grimms, colorless don't has to be horrible.

While this is true, it's difficult to extrapolate based on this point because it contradicts so many other facts (i.e., why do so many wessen, even wessen who are "friends" of grimm, like hundjaegar, freak out when they see a grimm). And really, given how many cultures differ in their various mores, it's hard to say whether a grimm appears "objectively" offensive to western cultures, but not to the Genio Innocuo. The image of the grimm reaper is inherently objectionable to western cultures, but maybe not to island people.

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - Gretel Hanselsister - 10-12-2013

(10-12-2013, 10:06 AM)HellJacket Wrote: This doesn't necessarily identify how wessen recognize them. This drawing could be a "moral" depiction, rather than an accurate physical manifestation of a grimm woge. For argument's sake, let's say wessen identify grimm by hearing. That would be very difficult to depict in a drawing, but the illustrator would likely still depict them as monsters.

moral depiction, this is true for sure, it's typical for fairy tale books.
But the I-can-sens-a-Grimm thing is visual, otherwise no. 6 and 8 out of your list wouldn't work.
Since we don't have any real explanation how Wesen do see Grimms I like my colorless-explanation best Smile

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - HellJacket - 10-12-2013

(10-12-2013, 11:11 AM)Gretel Hanselsister Wrote: But the I-can-sens-a-Grimm thing is visual, otherwise no. 6 and 8 out of your list wouldn't work.

Not necessarily. If you go "6th sense" route, anything can be explained, even if the recognition manifests visually inside the wessen. The "6th sense" would simply not require (or it may require more than) the person looking directly at them. With smell identification, for instance, a blutbad or a fuchsbau would be able to recognize a specific person from anywhere inside a supermarket (i.e., from the same distance that Ariel or the Seltenvogel recognized Nick).

From the above evidence, all I can determine is that the writers do not have a clear idea how grimm are recognized. Sometimes the recognizing wessen woges, but not always (i.e., the father jagerbar knew Nick was a grimm, but never woged).

RE: Speculation on Grimm Woge (Undead Edition) - Elkhound - 02-20-2014

(10-12-2013, 09:09 AM)the-epic-prince Wrote: @Gretel Hanselsister

I think it was said that the Endezeichen-Grimms dressed like that.

Or it might be an artistic convention, like in some schools of Christian art Judas Iscariot being depicted with red hair.