10-11-2013, 07:28 PM
It looks like some moderator deleted my previous thread. I shall not use names, especially offensive ones, mainly because I can't prove which one did it. However, I am reposting two posts from that thread in case anyone would like to discuss the topic at hand.
I've been thinking. Wessen have two distinct woge forms: (1) when their form is only visible to grimm/other wessen, and (2) when they can be viewed by humans. The writers on the show are pretty inconsistent between when (1) applies and when (2) applies. Monroe, for instance, argued (1) happens when a wessen are emotional or stressed out (correct me if I'm remembering wrong). Monroe then argued (2) happened when a wessen was "really pissed off." Though, Bud did a (2) woge without appearing angry, and only stressed out. But this brings us to the point of this thread.
Let's assume grimm do have a distinct woge form that allows wessen to recognize them as grimm. While there are problems with this position, it's clearly better then every single other alternative I've seen discussed or contemplated myself (e.g., smell, weird feeling, grimm aura, Nick's quizzical look when wessen woge, etc.). Wessen recognize Nick using his (1) woge form. However, what circumstances may occur that cause him a (2) woge form (e.g., where Juliette could see his true form)?
Apparently, Monroe's comment that (2) woge form occurs when a wessen is angry does not apply. It didn't apply to Bud, and we've seen Nick angry a number of times (e.g., when Nick went after Renard because of his "relationship" with Juliette). So, I'm curious what circumstances for Nick may cause anyone to see Nick's (2) woge form.
I'm guessing that Nick may have an "awakening" or "quickening" in the future. This is where Nick gets his true "grimm powers." This awakening may coincide with Nick performing a (2) woge.
/Baseless speculation
/There is no "right" answer for responding to this post, since maybe I'm smarter than the writers on the show, and they haven't even thought of this yet, or are ducking the question until the series finale
The following post is my list of Grimm Woge Evidence
I've been meaning to post a thread compiling all the evidence about how wessen recognize grimm (i.e. Nick). I also want to do this because I rarely see the best evidence talked about by anyone on the forum. So, in the interest of discussion (and providing a valuable resource for denigrating crappy theories), here's my list. I'm going to post both positive and negative evidence, even though I think negative evidence is really crappy evidence and usually used by people who suck at logic. Feel free to post any facts that I miss. I'm also going to post any rational inferences (RI) that may be made from the evidence. For the record, there may be multiple rationale inferences that are even contradictory. Without having more facts, it's impossible to definitively state what is or is not the case.
1. The Genio Innocuo (tortoise-wessen) on the Galapagos Islands who encountered the grimm did not immediately fear Nick's ancestor.
RI: Whatever sensory manifestation wessen receive of grimm, it is not "objectively" offensive. This may rule out terrible smells or that grimm take the form of a grimm reaper (since images of death are a pretty universally feared image by groups, if not necessarily individuals).
2. Aunt Marie tells Nick in the pilot that now that he can see wessen, "he's vulnerable."
RI: The above clearly supports a connection between Nick's "second sight" and wessen recognition of him. However, since it was stated in the pilot, that does raise the issue that it may be suspect as valid evidence (see my other post). For the record, just because something was said in the pilot does not make it wrong or the opposite conclusion correct. It just means the writers have no reason to maintain continuity with the rest of the series based on what happens or is said in the pilot.
3. The people responsible for killing Nick's father and his mother's "friend" took the woman's head, because they thought they had killed a grimm.
RI: There appears to be no convenient method for identifying grimm post-mortem. (or maybe when they realized the head didn't belong to a grimm, they buried it in the nearest hole)
4. Nick tells Hank he doesn't know how wessen recognize him.
5. Nick tells Hank maybe wessen can smell him.
6. Ariel, the Damonfeuer, picked Nick out of a crowded audience from being on a stage while in her changed form.
7. The Klaustreich who transformed in front of Nick at the front door and who was looking away at the time, did not recognize Nick was a grimm.
8. The Seltenvogel recognized Nick was a grimm from across a crowded shopping center.
9. The teenage coyotl freaked out while in her wessen form when she recognized Nick. She appeared far more scared of Nick than the band of coyotles outside the bar.
10. Monroe comments that the vast majority of wessen have never seen a grimm, but so far, every wessen has been able to recognize Nick's nature.
11. (Negative Evidence) Rosalee and Monroe recognized through their sense of smell that someone was in Nick's house when they come upon him in the season 2 premiere, but make no mention of the person being a grimm.
12. The bauerschwein whose brothers were killed by Angelina was afraid when he recognized Nick was a grimm, despite even saying how bauerschwein and grimm families have never had problems with each other.
13. Bees apparently like Nick (i.e. a grimm). Though, later, they disliked him. It raises the question how drone bees can recognize Nick.
While technically, every time a wessen transforms and provides a fearful look towards Nick is evidence, I'm not going to list all those instances for efficiency sake.
Feel free to note any facts above that are wrong or should be included or list any RI that you feel should be considered.
I've been thinking. Wessen have two distinct woge forms: (1) when their form is only visible to grimm/other wessen, and (2) when they can be viewed by humans. The writers on the show are pretty inconsistent between when (1) applies and when (2) applies. Monroe, for instance, argued (1) happens when a wessen are emotional or stressed out (correct me if I'm remembering wrong). Monroe then argued (2) happened when a wessen was "really pissed off." Though, Bud did a (2) woge without appearing angry, and only stressed out. But this brings us to the point of this thread.
Let's assume grimm do have a distinct woge form that allows wessen to recognize them as grimm. While there are problems with this position, it's clearly better then every single other alternative I've seen discussed or contemplated myself (e.g., smell, weird feeling, grimm aura, Nick's quizzical look when wessen woge, etc.). Wessen recognize Nick using his (1) woge form. However, what circumstances may occur that cause him a (2) woge form (e.g., where Juliette could see his true form)?
Apparently, Monroe's comment that (2) woge form occurs when a wessen is angry does not apply. It didn't apply to Bud, and we've seen Nick angry a number of times (e.g., when Nick went after Renard because of his "relationship" with Juliette). So, I'm curious what circumstances for Nick may cause anyone to see Nick's (2) woge form.
I'm guessing that Nick may have an "awakening" or "quickening" in the future. This is where Nick gets his true "grimm powers." This awakening may coincide with Nick performing a (2) woge.
/Baseless speculation
/There is no "right" answer for responding to this post, since maybe I'm smarter than the writers on the show, and they haven't even thought of this yet, or are ducking the question until the series finale
The following post is my list of Grimm Woge Evidence
I've been meaning to post a thread compiling all the evidence about how wessen recognize grimm (i.e. Nick). I also want to do this because I rarely see the best evidence talked about by anyone on the forum. So, in the interest of discussion (and providing a valuable resource for denigrating crappy theories), here's my list. I'm going to post both positive and negative evidence, even though I think negative evidence is really crappy evidence and usually used by people who suck at logic. Feel free to post any facts that I miss. I'm also going to post any rational inferences (RI) that may be made from the evidence. For the record, there may be multiple rationale inferences that are even contradictory. Without having more facts, it's impossible to definitively state what is or is not the case.
1. The Genio Innocuo (tortoise-wessen) on the Galapagos Islands who encountered the grimm did not immediately fear Nick's ancestor.
RI: Whatever sensory manifestation wessen receive of grimm, it is not "objectively" offensive. This may rule out terrible smells or that grimm take the form of a grimm reaper (since images of death are a pretty universally feared image by groups, if not necessarily individuals).
2. Aunt Marie tells Nick in the pilot that now that he can see wessen, "he's vulnerable."
RI: The above clearly supports a connection between Nick's "second sight" and wessen recognition of him. However, since it was stated in the pilot, that does raise the issue that it may be suspect as valid evidence (see my other post). For the record, just because something was said in the pilot does not make it wrong or the opposite conclusion correct. It just means the writers have no reason to maintain continuity with the rest of the series based on what happens or is said in the pilot.
3. The people responsible for killing Nick's father and his mother's "friend" took the woman's head, because they thought they had killed a grimm.
RI: There appears to be no convenient method for identifying grimm post-mortem. (or maybe when they realized the head didn't belong to a grimm, they buried it in the nearest hole)
4. Nick tells Hank he doesn't know how wessen recognize him.
5. Nick tells Hank maybe wessen can smell him.
6. Ariel, the Damonfeuer, picked Nick out of a crowded audience from being on a stage while in her changed form.
7. The Klaustreich who transformed in front of Nick at the front door and who was looking away at the time, did not recognize Nick was a grimm.
8. The Seltenvogel recognized Nick was a grimm from across a crowded shopping center.
9. The teenage coyotl freaked out while in her wessen form when she recognized Nick. She appeared far more scared of Nick than the band of coyotles outside the bar.
10. Monroe comments that the vast majority of wessen have never seen a grimm, but so far, every wessen has been able to recognize Nick's nature.
11. (Negative Evidence) Rosalee and Monroe recognized through their sense of smell that someone was in Nick's house when they come upon him in the season 2 premiere, but make no mention of the person being a grimm.
12. The bauerschwein whose brothers were killed by Angelina was afraid when he recognized Nick was a grimm, despite even saying how bauerschwein and grimm families have never had problems with each other.
13. Bees apparently like Nick (i.e. a grimm). Though, later, they disliked him. It raises the question how drone bees can recognize Nick.
While technically, every time a wessen transforms and provides a fearful look towards Nick is evidence, I'm not going to list all those instances for efficiency sake.
Feel free to note any facts above that are wrong or should be included or list any RI that you feel should be considered.