(12-06-2015, 10:31 AM)izzy Wrote:(12-06-2015, 06:32 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Thanks, irukandji, if I ever had to face the opposition in a serious debate, I'd want you on my side.
Beware the deadly barbed tendrils of the Jellyfish!!!
OMG, it just hit me, irukandji, may be wesen!
Quote:Juliette...
...She loved Nick to the end and that's the thing that matters to me.
I am not so sure of that...
Allow me to build a context for my response. The series opens rather in the middle of a relationship between Nick and Julliette, no scratch that because we don't know even that. Whether they are old high school sweethearts rekindled, or a one night fling that both tried to make into something more, or something in between is left for us, at this point to flesh out for ourselves. Hence in large part the disparity of opinion in what their relationship truly was and the disparity in how people view who is at fault and who should be held accountable.
My interpretation, when we enter Nick and Juliette’s life as the series began, is we have a couple who are both getting on the longer side of the averages for a first marriage (another point it, for all we know Nick and Juliette may have been married before, or lived with other people before which would change things more than a bit). In other words they are at the moving in together stage of a relationship, lagging those on a marriage track statistically. In a couple of more years Juliette will be entering the higher risk category for pregnancy. And so with that framing in mind, the camera drops us into the life of Nick and Juliette.
What I see is a couple, who are far happier and interact better in the presence of other people/couples, where they can be cute and charming together. When alone a slightly different picture emerge. Juliette from the get go seems more than a bit aloof, I speculate she has more than just a few reservations about a “life” with Nick. Hence my theory on the origin of the relationship between them boiling down to Juliette was out slumming one night when she met Nick. Juliette is vet, she has to be more than a little aware of age related genetic defects and risks, and yet here she is, an intelligent, well-educated woman with a life time of likely career success ahead of her and her biological clock is ticking. At the time of our opening glimpses into their life her prospect is Nick, a cop…with all the stress that lifestyle can bring to a family and relationship likely being carefully weighed out. And that is where the series Grimm, in my mind opens….
Hence I am not so sure how "in love" with Nick she truly is, how much does her mind overrule, if at all, her heart? How much of this relationship is driven by biological reality, she is getting into the higher risk category for pregnancy and she is only entering the "live together" phase of a relationship. For me the unresolved aspect is, did Juliette really love Nick with all her heart and was simply in a conflict of heart vs mind or was the love sort of a line of best fit, sort of a love the one your with mentality given the relative pool of prospects. Now you through in "enter the Renard" and suddenly the landscape changes and makes a lot more sense at least to me.
Obviously, you don't know who you're dealing with here, and have structured your position on a firmly logical foundation, haha. Persuasive as they are, your words have reached the deaf ears of a fan who responds to Juliette (and others) on a purely viseral, emotional level and will accept no other reality than the stubborn 'because I want it to be that way' view of things. But very commendable effort, Izzy.
(12-06-2015, 09:44 AM)irukandji Wrote:(12-06-2015, 06:32 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Thanks, irukandji, if I ever had to face the opposition in a serious debate, I'd want you on my side. Because of that, I'll keep my remarks confined to the areas we tend to agree on - that'd be my favorite subject lately, Juliette, and by default, Renard.
Thank you, speakeasy! Please do disagree with me. I find I often learn the most when someone has a different point of view than my own.
(12-06-2015, 06:32 AM)speakeasy Wrote: Sean, Renard, the Captain, I love typing that, is also a victim of circumstances in this circle of tragic events, and so I have no problem overlooking his sleeping with Juliette because of it. So for me, personally, the question of morality can be taken out of the conversation. I'm with you also, irukandji, in your statement that there are enough villains already on the other side of the wesen uprising, which involves a global threat (just as the Royals have been saying right along; and the reason why they want Diana, imo). I'm hoping that Renard, Juliette (if she comes back), and everyone else can somehow band together against an evil enemy because I fear this is going to be one heck of a fight.
I originally viewed Sean as an oily character in the series. He always seemed to be in it only for himself at first. But I can see where being a bastard would have done that to him. Plus, I'm not so sure about the relationship between him and his mother. I tend to think that might have been a detriment to him rather than a benefit.
I don't know why, but I always thought his relationship with Juliette was more sincere than anything else. I really liked it when she went to him for help and he helped her.
I don't like the storyline with Nick and Adalind together. But if that's the story, so be it. Nick and Adalind have been given a chance.
Juliette and Renard didn't do any worse in my opinion. If Juliette is brought back, I'd like to see her hookup with Sean. She and Nick are old news, we've seen everything there is to see about them. There is no point in putting the two of them back together.
It's nice to see someone notice that Renard may have some small saving grace mixed in with all that wary defense-against-my-enemies mentality.
I'm not much in the way of being a staunch defender of firmly held views, but I would be privileged to hold your coat should the occasion arise when we both share the same beliefs and you want to step up! Besides, my views rarely make contact with those of most others, so it's better to just chime in here and there. I do enjoy the lively exchanges we find here at the forum.
(12-06-2015, 10:14 AM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji and Speakeasy,
Sorry, but I just gotta Google. I agree with Speakeasy about “star-crossed lovers; a phrase from the play Romeo and Juliet, in the prologue to the play that refers to any lovers whose affection for each other is doomed to end in tragedy.
I made my point that Nick still loves Juliette. As additional evidence I present the following partial transcripts:
From 5.01 The Grimm Identity:
Scene: Nick searches DMV records from his house to get Chavez' address.
________________________________________
[After writing down the address, Nick gets ready to leave when he hears a creaking sound and Juliette upstairs]
Juliette: Nick.
Nick: Juliette? [He runs upstairs]
Juliette: Nick.
Nick: [He goes into his room] Juliette! [He looks around the room, realizing no one is there and starts crying. He then takes a deep breathe] I can't do this. I can't do this. [He leaves]
From 5.02 Clear and Wesen Danger
Scene: Monroe works on setting up Kelly's bassinet.
________________________________________
[Adalind goes upstairs and Nick brings Kelly into the room and lays him down]
Adalind: The last time I was in this room it was with Diana. I hope she's okay.
Nick: Yeah, me too.
Adalind: Have you heard anything about Juliette?
Nick: [He pauses] She's dead.
Adalind: What? Oh, my God!
Nick: Trubel killed her to save my life.
Adalind: Oh, Nick, I thought she got away with the Royals.
Nick: No, she never left.
Adalind: I'm so sorry. Thank you for doing this.
[Nick leaves and goes to his room. He looks in the closet at one of Juliette's dresses. Flashback of Juliette asking for Nick to help zip the dress up in "The Other Side"]
Nick cries in 5.01 because the woman he loves is gone, and likely dead. Even Adalind (not a friend of Juliette) upon learning of her death in 5.02 says “I’m so sorry.” If she thought Nick no longer loved Juliette, she would have said something like “I’m so happy that B***h is dead!”
I remain firm in my position:
Juliette knew Nick still loved her and even taunted him about it just as she prepared to rip out his throat in 4.22. You can read the script. His love never ended. You can see it in the 5.01 dream scene of Juliette's funeral.
Renard knew Nick still loved Juliette. Even if he knew him only as Nick's boss he also knew Juliette was his woman. He had hit on her before and Nick would have mangled his sorry a**, but somehow by returning the stolen magic key Nick spared his miserable life. If Renard didn't think fornication with Juliette was a betrayal of Nick then he is totally devoid of moral judgement. He is unfit for any leadership position and a disgrace to the public he is supposed to serve and protect.
A boss has a moral, professional and ethical duty to keep his or her panties on when alone with a subordinate’s spouse or significant other. "There is such a thing in law with employers and employees. There's an implied obligation in every employment agreement that each party has to have an obligation of fidelity, and trust and confidence run alongside that."
New Guy
Hi New Guy,
I have the same opinion that Nick didn't stop loving Juliette. We take divergent paths in our opinions on much of the rest of what you posted here, but that's not news.
You remain firm in your opinion of Renard's guilt in sleeping with Juliette, and that's a valid position to take, but I am of a different feeling about it; so at least we're consistent. Thanks for posting.
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation." Bertrand Russell - printed on a beer mat in "Shaun of The Dead".