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+--- Thread: Meisner's ghost (/Thread-Meisner-s-ghost)
RE: Meisner's ghost - izzy - 12-31-2019
No I did not abandon my own thread, I am still digesting the thoughtful commentary.
I just wanted to compliment the polite banter between FaceInTheCrowd and the Jellyfish.
And a very Happy New Year to all.
RE: Meisner's ghost - dicappatore - 01-01-2020
And the diarrhea of the typed word just keeps pouring out of the biggest BS artist on now, 2 forums.
(12-31-2019, 03:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: There was no indication Black Claw wanted to fulfill Hitler's objective of ethnic cleansing. And Eve's statement was merely a comparison of Hitler to Black Claw. She did not suggest that Black Claw was furthering Hitler's mission.This has to be one of the most preposterous idiotic statement but expected from an idiot or just someone with the lack of understanding history.
Here is a teachable moment to all you airheads such as this composer.
One of Hitler's tactics was using ethnic cleansing. This was a tactic used for a much greater objective. His ultimate goal was not ethnic cleansing but world domination. He claimed his Third Reich of world domination would last a 1000 years. That was the exact same thing BC was trying to accomplish, World Domination. Just a small fact this poster has no comprehensions of the subject matter.
(12-31-2019, 03:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Regarding Trubel, who yet again fails to prove herself: Why the creative team would have her make the idiotic statement, “I thought Meisner was Renard's friend. Why would he do this?”, is beyond any comprehension.OMG, how do I count the ways on how much of this you got wrong.
When did she see Renard and Meisner whooping it up as friends? What makes her statement even more ridiculous is that Meisner is her superior. HW was spying on Renard. He was in charge of the HW satellite in Portland. HW was the enemy of Black Claw. Renard was part of Black Claw.
Trubel knew all of this but still opens her mouth to utter dumbness once again. There is no way Renard and Meisner could be good friends. For them to be so would no doubt raise suspicions about Meisner's involvement with Black Claw, not to mention seriously call his position at HW into question.
Quote:Regarding Trubel, who yet again fails to prove herself: Why the creative team would have her make the idiotic statement, “I thought Meisner was Renard's friend. Why would he do this?”, is beyond any comprehension.Trubel is a fantasy character, your supposed to be a real live person. Yet you are the one whom seems to lack comprehension here. Since where does it say to be friends you have to whooping it up? Trubel was well aware of Meisner's past and involvement with Sean and the royals. Meisner killed his half brother Eric and his father, the king, with Sean's blessings.
When did she see Renard and Meisner whooping it up as friends? What makes her statement even more ridiculous is that Meisner is her superior. HW was spying on Renard. He was in charge of the HW satellite in Portland. HW was the enemy of Black Claw. Renard was part of Black Claw.
Quote:Trubel knew all of this but still opens her mouth to utter dumbness once again. There is no way Renard and Meisner could be good friends. For them to be so would no doubt raise suspicions about Meisner's involvement with Black Claw, not to mention seriously call his position at HW into question.You are so frekinn confused on this whole statement, is beyond belief. The only one her whom is opening their mouth in "utter dumbness' is non other but yourself. And here is why.
Sean Renard did not start out nor was he associated with Black Claw. As a matter of fact, he was part of the scoobies originally ambushed by BC in the warehouse and ultimately rescued by Eve. He was then, coerced to support Dixon run for mayor by Rachel, a BC operative way before Sean was hardly aware of BC's involvement in the Portland government, nor BC ultimate plans.
Once BC assassinated Dixon and set up his assassin to be taken out by Renard, himself, as to make him look like a hero, Renard was still UNAWARE, he was being recruited by BC to run for mayor, CAPISCE BACCALA?
(12-31-2019, 03:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Finally your statement about Renard telling Meisner about the good times they had. Meisner was his bodyguard. The two of them could have good times without being drinking buddies. You neglected to mention that that statement was made to Meisner after he died, NOT while he was alive. If Renard's well-being is really the issue here, he might have said anything to get rid of the ghost.WTF are you talking about? You are all over the place, and as usual, you make no sense and have no frekin clue of the subject at hand and any valid recollection of what transpired on the screen.
I shouldn't even have to address this, but there was more to Izzy's post than what you think I should be responding to. If you had read the entire initial post, you also would have seen the question, " What was the real purpose of the Meisner ghost?"
Remember whom and why Meisner was finally killed. Of course, as usual, you have no clue, so, I will remind you.
Bonaparte was choking Meisner and was in the process of dying a painful death as revenge from one of the founders of BC Bonaparte, for all the BC Meisner had killed. Sean Renard shot him, so he wouldn't suffer. Do you completely overlook the meaning of his actions, on that scene? Are you that clueless? Or just forgot about it and just talking out of your rear?
(12-31-2019, 03:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Meisner was not a good man. He was terrorist, who brutalized, tortured and killed people. He died a violent death. He came back as a ghost, tasked to haunt Renard. Ghosts are usually the souls who require redeeming. There are many stories and myths to support this so don't act like it cannot be part of this thread.I get it, you are entitled to your opinion. In your twisted mind Meisner, Nick, Kelly senior, Trubel and the rest of the gang was a bad guy, while the killer Wesen, the Royals, including Sean and Kenneth, Verat and BC were the good guys. Key phrase, "twisted mind".
(12-31-2019, 03:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Besides that, as FITC pointed out, Renard is not redeemed as a result of Meisner badgering him. Meisner could have easily been the one who was redeemed. He was free to walk away and leave Renard in peace. Ghosts don't get that option unless a higher authority deems them redeemed and thus, at peace.
Like I said before, WTF does is the point on which character was redeeming themselves. I told you why they kept Meisner around longer than needed. It was eye candy for the ladies and here is my proof.
The scene when Meisner goes to check on the safe house holding Diana. He finds the cabin broken in. The HW agents dead and Diana gone. While there, a BC Wesen confronts Meisner and a fight breaks out and WHAM, Meisner is shirt is ripped off and has no undershirt on. He is shirtless. Why else was that scene for??
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 01-01-2020
(12-31-2019, 04:29 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: My guess is that Trubel was aware of Meisner's past association with Renard, and that Meisner had paid a call to Renard to let him know that Diana was in what he thought were safe hands.
But who would tell Trubel about Meisner and Renard's past association? Certainly not Renard himself and it's apparent from her statement that Meisner said nothing of it to her. Otherwise, she wouldn't be guessing. She would know. Meisner did pay a call to Renard to let him know that Diana was in safe hands. However, that was between Meisner and Renard. I don't think Renard was a card carrying member of Black Claw at that point,
Quote:And within the context of Renard and Meisner's previous relationship, maybe blowing up Eric constituted a "good time" they had together? They both seemed pretty happy about it when they talked after.
Absolutely. That could be considered a good time between the two of them. In my mind, it just doesn't make them friends.
Quote:If my speculation about Meisner's motive is correct, it would not be Meisner redeeming his sins so much as him being able to rest easier knowing that his last mission wasn't left undone. Ghosts are often said to haunt people and places they have unfinished business with.
In real life, according to the hokey Ghost Hunters, these so called ghosts can be in the place, or it's some residual haunting, whatever that means.
There was an old episode on the radio program, Coast to Coast, where the interview consisted of a team who went to a prison and spent a lot of time taping the place for sounds. They believed it was haunted and captured what they said was a ghost. They then did some research and then linked that sound to convict who died violently in prison.
You've heard these before I'm sure. There's a lot of gravelly noise on the tape, which they claim are the words, "kill you", some nonsense like "death door" or they might interpret it to be the convict's name. Whatever. The Ghost Hunters used to do the same thing. But in each case, what they say they "heard" is open to question.
I'm not sure what Meisner's task is in all of this. It seems rather a waste of supernatural forces to have a ghost appear to Renard simply to torture him for fun, warn him he's on the wrong side, and then help him by point out his potential killers.
RE: Meisner's ghost - N_grimm - 01-01-2020
(12-31-2019, 03:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: As for your proof, I didn't address it because it just didn't seem to me that you really got adequate proof. There was no indication Black Claw wanted to fulfill Hitler's objective of ethnic cleansing. And Eve's statement was merely a comparison of Hitler to Black Claw. She did not suggest that Black Claw was furthering Hitler's mission.
Black Claw wanted to kill everyone who did not fit into their worldview – based on race and conviction, with world domination as the goal. You did not need Eve’s statement or the Swastika in order to draw the historical parallels. And if people lack historical knowledge, they can easily associate BC with the goals of modern terrorist organizations. The link to Hitler went all the way back to the films in Nick’s trailer showing Hitler and the Verrat shooting people in 1936. Meisner also worked for the Resistance, who opposed the Verrat. You can’t get Renard of the hook by saying you didn't see any Nazi uniforms. Not only did Renard knew, he tried to recruit Nick by defending their ideology.
Quote:Regarding Trubel, who yet again fails to prove herself: Why the creative team would have her make the idiotic statement, “I thought Meisner was Renard's friend. Why would he do this?”, is beyond any comprehension.
When did she see Renard and Meisner whooping it up as friends? What makes her statement even more ridiculous is that Meisner is her superior. HW was spying on Renard. He was in charge of the HW satellite in Portland. HW was the enemy of Black Claw. Renard was part of Black Claw.
Trubel knew all of this but still opens her mouth to utter dumbness once again. There is no way Renard and Meisner could be good friends. For them to be so would no doubt raise suspicions about Meisner's involvement with Black Claw, not to mention seriously call his position at HW into question.
I could give you serval examples of the trust between Renard and Meisner, but will focus on this this: The creative team, unlike you, knew all the details of the Renard/Meisner background story. Trubel was close to Meisner - she was in tears when she found him dead. Could it be that Meisner had told Trubel about Renard? As Face correctly have pointed out, we have no clue if Meisner was Renard’s bodyguard. What we do know is that Renard’s statement is CONSISTENT with that made by Trubel. Why would the writers repeat this message if it was false? It’s irrelevant whether you thought it was stupid, it was the storyline.
Quote: Meisner was not a good man. He was terrorist, who brutalized, tortured and killed people. He died a violent death. He came back as a ghost, tasked to haunt Renard. Ghosts are usually the souls who require redeeming. There are many stories and myths to support this so don't act like it cannot be part of this thread.
Based on what we know, Meisner dedicated his life to fighting against organizations that posed a danger to society. He was not a terrorist, but portrayed as an unselfish hero – i.e. the complete opposite of Sean Renard. That’s why your theory about Meisner being the one who needed redemption is absurd. If Meisner needed to be redeemed, it would be included in the storyline! The writers were trying to tell a story, not hide it away from the viewers!
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 01-01-2020
(01-01-2020, 09:53 AM)N_grimm Wrote: Black Claw wanted to kill everyone who did not fit into their worldview – based on race and conviction, with world domination as the goal. You did not need Eve’s statement or the Swastika in order to draw the historical parallels. And if people lack historical knowledge, they can easily associate BC with the goals of modern terrorist organizations. The link to Hitler went all the way back to the films in Nick’s trailer showing Hitler and the Verrat shooting people in 1936. Meisner also worked for the Resistance, who opposed the Verrat. You can’t get Renard of the hook by saying you didn't see any Nazi uniforms. Not only did Renard knew, he tried to recruit Nick by defending their ideology.
I always thought the point of showing the Hitler films was to reveal him as a wesen. You feel this is a link to Hitler. I don't see it and none of the characters ever stated that Black Claw followed Hitler's doctrines.
Quote:I could give you serval examples of the trust between Renard and Meisner, but will focus on this this: The creative team, unlike you, knew all the details of Renard and Meisner background story. Trubel was close to Meisner - she was in tears when she found him dead. Could it be that Meisner had told Trubel about Renard? As Face correctly have pointed out, we have no clue if Meisner was Renard’s bodyguard. What we do know is that Renard’s statement is CONSISTENT with that made by Truble. Why would the writers repeat this message if it was false? It’s irrelevant whether you thought it was stupid, it was the storyline.
But here's the thing you completely forget. Meisner was the head of the satellite HW operations in Portland. HW fought against BC. Renard became a high level member of BC. HW was spying on BC. HW was spying on Renard. THAT was at Meisner's direction.
Meisner could have told Trubel that he once had an association with Renard. That could be part of the intel to spy on him. However, Trubel would never know that on her own because, well duh, she wasn't around when Renard was together with Meisner. Which, by the way had to do with the resistance, not HW. The two men would not be friends because they were a part of organizations who were enemies to one another.
Once Renard went over to BC, whatever relationship the two men had is evaporated, gone. For either one to associate with the other would have meant death for one or both.
Quote:Based on what we know, Meisner dedicated his life to fighting against organizations that posed a danger to society. He was not a terrorist, but portrayed as an unselfish hero – i.e. the complete opposite of Sean Renard. That’s why your theory about Meisner being the one who needed redemption is absurd. If Meisner needed to be redeemed, it would be included in the storyline! The writers were trying to tell a story, not hide it away from the viewers!
He was a terrorist, kidnapper, murderer, and he liked to brutalize women. That was obvious from his encounter with Eve. You think that because he delivered Adalind's baby, he's a good guy. Meisner was Renard's bodyguard, but it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that he's going with the side who pays him the most money.
Very bad man. He needs redemption. He came to Renard, not the other way around.
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-01-2020
(01-01-2020, 09:48 AM)irukandji Wrote: I'm not sure what Meisner's task is in all of this. It seems rather a waste of supernatural forces to have a ghost appear to Renard simply to torture him for fun, warn him he's on the wrong side, and then help him by point out his potential killers.
One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
I don't recall there ever being any mention of either Meisner or Sebastien working for Renard strictly for money; certainly Sebastien did not choose his exit because he was being paid for it. Meisner's one moment of motivational exposition was when he was hiding Adalind and Diana in his family cabin and told Adalind that his hope was to pay the royals back for their killing of his girlfriend. He was as much a fanatic as anyone who served the royals or BC, but on the side of "good" (I put it in quotes because it's a relative concept and Meisner was willing to do some pretty nasty things in pursuit of his idea of it).
I think the only potential regret or guilt in Meisner's mind at the time of his death would have been that he was dying while his enemies (the enemy of the moment being BC, but the royals might also be included in that) still lived. So if he was seeking a "redemption" that would allow him to move on to whatever awaited him in the afterlife it would have consisted of (a) deter Renard from seeking to become the next Bonaparte and (b) getting rid of anyone else who would seek to become the next Bonaparte, which he accomplished by convincing Renard to be done with BC and helping him kill Baledin and his sidekick. Had he been unable to change Renard's ambitions, he probably would have manipulated the situation so that Renard and Baledin ended up killing each other.
RE: Meisner's ghost - N_grimm - 01-01-2020
(01-01-2020, 10:07 AM)irukandji Wrote: I always thought the point of showing the Hitler films was to reveal him as a wesen. You feel this is a link to Hitler. I don't see it and none of the characters ever stated that Black Claw followed Hitler's doctrines.
I assumed you had some basic knowable about history.
Quote:But here's the thing you completely forget. Meisner was the head of the satellite HW operations in Portland. HW fought against BC. Renard became a high level member of BC. HW was spying on BC. HW was spying on Renard. THAT was at Meisner's direction.
Meisner could have told Trubel that he once had an association with Renard. That could be part of the intel to spy on him. However, Trubel would never know that on her own because, well duh, she wasn't around when Renard was together with Meisner. Which, by the way had to do with the resistance, not HW. The two men would not be friends because they were a part of organizations who were enemies to one another.
Once Renard went over to BC, whatever relationship the two men had is evaporated, gone. For either one to associate with the other would have meant death for one or both.
The biggest problem was not that he killed Meisner per se, but that he killed Meisner because he chose the “wrong side”. Killing his formed friend, who also saved his daughter, just added to the betrayal part.
Quote:He was a terrorist, kidnapper, murderer, and he liked to brutalize women. That was obvious from his encounter with Eve. You think that because he delivered Adalind's baby, he's a good guy. Meisner was Renard's bodyguard, but it's not a stretch of the imagination to see that he's going with the side who pays him the most money.
Very bad man. He needs redemption. He came to Renard, not the other way around.
So, let’s talk about this part of the storyline, since you clearly misunderstood: Meisner came to Renard because he “chose the wrong side”. The moment Renard killed the BC-assassins, Mesiner left. When Trubel later said: “I wish Meisner knew”, Renard responded: “believe me, he does”. This had nothing to do with Meisner needing redemption.
He liked to brutalize women????? - I knew this had to relate to Juliette somehow...
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-01-2020
(01-01-2020, 09:53 AM)N_grimm Wrote: Could it be that Meisner had told Trubel about Renard?
I tend to think not. Trubel appeared to have a an attachment to Meisner, but did we ever see any indication that Meisner saw her as anything other than a soldier under his command?
Any belief Trubel might have had that Meisner considered Renard a personal friend rather than a fellow fighter against the royals (and who he expected would also be one against BC) was probably the result of a superficial observation of their interactions in the early part of S05, i.e., Meisner confiding in Renard about HW and the resistance making a deal with Viktor and Diana being in "safe hands."
RE: Meisner's ghost - irukandji - 01-01-2020
I think it was mentioned in Grimm Wiki that Meisner was Renard's bodyguard. Perhaps he was just some mercenary then. He had to make money some way.
RE: Meisner's ghost - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-01-2020
I don't doubt that Renard supplied both Meisner and Sebastien with operating funds, in much the same way that the Allies in WWII supplied the French Resistance. But do you really think they did what they did for him solely because he managed to outbid the royals?