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+--- Thread: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid (/Thread-The-Kessler-sisters-when-Nick-was-a-kid)
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - irukandji - 09-24-2018
Actually, I find Marie the more tragic of the two. Kelly always seemed very confident of herself to me.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-24-2018
Marie gave up Farley and apparently her life as a Grimm to become a librarian and raise Nick. We have no idea how she felt about that, but ultimately she did have a life with work and family.
Kelly was supremely confident as a fighter, but that was her entire life. Socially, she was practically feral.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - irukandji - 09-24-2018
I think that's the way Kelly preferred her life. I don't see any tragic undertones to that.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - brandon - 09-24-2018
Marie resigned to have a life of her own to take care of her nephew, a family.
that's sacrifice but I think Marie was also afraid,that had nothing to do with how strong it was.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-24-2018
Kelly told Nick not to make the mistake of giving up the people he loved. That sounds like regret to me.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - dicappatore - 09-24-2018
(09-24-2018, 04:25 AM)irukandji Wrote: Marie's warning to Nick is at best, vague. She tells Nick she knows he loves Juliette, but that he has to end it and never see her again because it's too dangerous. As Marie does not elaborate any further, there's no way to know what she's talking about.
In any case, I don't see how the Nick/Juliette relationship compares with the Kelly/Nick relationship. Nick doesn't owe Juliette in the same sense that Kelly owes Nick.
(09-23-2018, 11:19 PM)dicappatore Wrote: OK, we get it.
Okay, big shot. You've been dying to debate with me so I'm going to give you your big chance.
Serious question, no sarcasm in it.
What is your impression of Kelly?
Kelly did her best given her situation. Yea, they had Grimm books and many books on Wesen species and how to go about killing them. None of those books came with instructions on how to deal with life as a Grimm in society, let alone in today's modern society with so much more science and logic and a lot less superstitions and old wives tales.
Did she make mistakes? She sure did. She even admitted it. She even eventually warmed up and accepted how Nick was practicing ye old family business. She was a Grimm but she was also human and as such, she was imperfect. Was she a heroin? She sure was when it came to Diana, Just her few years of influence on the kidnapped child, I believe was enough to turn her to the good side instead of, what she could have become under the influence of Adalind 1.0 (pre-baby Kelly) or with the Royals or with both.
She was also victimized and betrayed bu Juliette. No matter how many excuses you have made for Juliette not being responsible for her death. No matter how many ways she could not have been convicted for her death in a court of law. does not change her participation in her demise. Juliette herself even admitted it, yet you blamed Kelly for being too stupid to see the trap that Juliette set her up and helped sprung.
So as my overall perception or opinions of Kelly? She was a hero, in my book. She was imperfect and flawed and did the best, better yet, excelled as a mother. She did not abandoned Nick. She didn't dump him at an orphanage or left him at a firehouse. She gave him up to protect him. By leaving him with her sister saved his life. Do you think he would have survived that car crash if he was in it? I don't think so. Her sacrifice, and it was a sacrifice to leave him, saved his life to become what we saw on the screen.
So to answer your question? She was a hell of a mother, sister, wife and proud of her, had she had been my mother.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - irukandji - 09-24-2018
(09-24-2018, 12:06 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Kelly told Nick not to make the mistake of giving up the people he loved. That sounds like regret to me.
And yet Marie, who was like a mother to Nick, told him to get rid of Juliette as it was too dangerous.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-24-2018
Yes, Marie apparently still thought that what she told Kelly to do was right, even though it's not what she did. Maybe she thought that she could do a better job of keeping someone she loved safe than either her sister or her nephew?
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - irukandji - 09-24-2018
(09-24-2018, 12:47 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Kelly did her best given her situation. Yea, they had Grimm books and many books on Wesen species and how to go about killing them. None of those books came with instructions on how to deal with life as a Grimm in society, let alone in today's modern society with so much more science and logic and a lot less superstitions and old wives tales.
Did she make mistakes? She sure did. She even admitted it. She even eventually warmed up and accepted how Nick was practicing ye old family business. She was a Grimm but she was also human and as such, she was imperfect. Was she a heroin? She sure was when it came to Diana, Just her few years of influence on the kidnapped child, I believe was enough to turn her to the good side instead of, what she could have become under the influence of Adalind 1.0 (pre-baby Kelly) or with the Royals or with both.
She was also victimized and betrayed bu Juliette. No matter how many excuses you have made for Juliette not being responsible for her death. No matter how many ways she could not have been convicted for her death in a court of law. does not change her participation in her demise. Juliette herself even admitted it, yet you blamed Kelly for being too stupid to see the trap that Juliette set her up and helped sprung.
So as my overall perception or opinions of Kelly? She was a hero, in my book. She was imperfect and flawed and did the best, better yet, excelled as a mother. She did not abandoned Nick. She didn't dump him at an orphanage or left him at a firehouse. She gave him up to protect him. By leaving him with her sister saved his life. Do you think he would have survived that car crash if he was in it? I don't think so. Her sacrifice, and it was a sacrifice to leave him, saved his life to become what we saw on the screen.
So to answer your question? She was a hell of a mother, sister, wife and proud of her, had she had been my mother.
Thank you. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?
A couple things here. You already know I don't share your opinion of Kelly. I get where you see her as a heroine because the series portrays her as a heroine. I also understand why she gave Nick up. I get the whole sacrifice angle. It's her recent actions that tarnish the whole heroine/sacrifice thing for me.
She apparently made a pact with Marie. In other words, they agreed that she was dead to Nick. That way, he would be protected. I get that. If she experienced pain in letting him go, I can understand that. What I don't get is why break that pact then? Why not perpetuate the myth? She didn't come there for Nick, she was there for the coins and needed his help. If she's so concerned about her son, why bring him into any of that?
The second issue is the kidnapping of baby Diana. There was nothing noble or good in that from the time she spoke to Nick about it until she came back to Nick's and exposed the child to grave danger.
Whatever heroism she exhibited or sacrifices she made in the past for Nick are tarnished in comparison to her recent actions.
In my opinion, the more noble and heroic character was Marie.
I don't expect you to agree with this any more than I expect anyone else to agree with it. What I have found is that this has turned into an entertaining discussion because of varying opinions. I suspect you do too or you wouldn't be frequenting the thread. So why don't we continue respecting one another's opinions and enjoy the debate.
RE: The Kessler sisters when Nick was a kid - dicappatore - 09-24-2018
(09-24-2018, 06:41 PM)irukandji Wrote:(09-24-2018, 12:47 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Kelly did her best given her situation. Yea, they had Grimm books and many books on Wesen species and how to go about killing them. None of those books came with instructions on how to deal with life as a Grimm in society, let alone in today's modern society with so much more science and logic and a lot less superstitions and old wives tales.
Did she make mistakes? She sure did. She even admitted it. She even eventually warmed up and accepted how Nick was practicing ye old family business. She was a Grimm but she was also human and as such, she was imperfect. Was she a heroin? She sure was when it came to Diana, Just her few years of influence on the kidnapped child, I believe was enough to turn her to the good side instead of, what she could have become under the influence of Adalind 1.0 (pre-baby Kelly) or with the Royals or with both.
She was also victimized and betrayed bu Juliette. No matter how many excuses you have made for Juliette not being responsible for her death. No matter how many ways she could not have been convicted for her death in a court of law. does not change her participation in her demise. Juliette herself even admitted it, yet you blamed Kelly for being too stupid to see the trap that Juliette set her up and helped sprung.
So as my overall perception or opinions of Kelly? She was a hero, in my book. She was imperfect and flawed and did the best, better yet, excelled as a mother. She did not abandoned Nick. She didn't dump him at an orphanage or left him at a firehouse. She gave him up to protect him. By leaving him with her sister saved his life. Do you think he would have survived that car crash if he was in it? I don't think so. Her sacrifice, and it was a sacrifice to leave him, saved his life to become what we saw on the screen.
So to answer your question? She was a hell of a mother, sister, wife and proud of her, had she had been my mother.
Thank you. Now that wasn't so hard, was it?
A couple things here. You already know I don't share your opinion of Kelly. I get where you see her as a heroine because the series portrays her as a heroine. I also understand why she gave Nick up. I get the whole sacrifice angle. It's her recent actions that tarnish the whole heroine/sacrifice thing for me.
She apparently made a pact with Marie. In other words, they agreed that she was dead to Nick. That way, he would be protected. I get that. If she experienced pain in letting him go, I can understand that. What I don't get is why break that pact then? Why not perpetuate the myth? She didn't come there for Nick, she was there for the coins and needed his help. If she's so concerned about her son, why bring him into any of that?
The second issue is the kidnapping of baby Diana. There was nothing noble or good in that from the time she spoke to Nick about it until she came back to Nick's and exposed the child to grave danger.
Whatever heroism she exhibited or sacrifices she made in the past for Nick are tarnished in comparison to her recent actions.
In my opinion, the more noble and heroic character was Marie.
I don't expect you to agree with this any more than I expect anyone else to agree with it. What I have found is that this has turned into an entertaining discussion because of varying opinions. I suspect you do too or you wouldn't be frequenting the thread. So why don't we continue respecting one another's opinions and enjoy the debate.
I disagreed with your opinions on what your opinions were based on. So far according to your latest post, I don't see to many dependencies on the facts. Here are a few of the dependencies, i do see, if taken and considered by you, I am sure your opinion would have a different outlook.
Quote:What I don't get is why break that pact then? Why not perpetuate the myth? She didn't come there for Nick, she was there for the coins and needed his help. If she's so concerned about her son, why bring him into any of that?She had very good reasons for breaking her "pact". She came to Nick because the coins found Nick. She came to Nick because the assassin was after the coins and Nick. As I recall, the assassin was about to kick Nick in the ass and she, again, saved his ass. Lest not forget, That guy was also on her target list as the last of the gang she was after for her revenge.
So you can see where we differ. I am sure she did wish to perpetuate the myth and I am also sure, she knew she wasn't getting any younger and, in her cold heart-ed way, wanted to see her only son before she passed on. Combine the additional danger those coins put her son in? How could she NOT break her pact? AND, this is a BIG "AND", IMO, she saved his life.
Quote:The second issue is the kidnapping of baby Diana. There was nothing noble or good in that from the time she spoke to Nick about itYou are quick to critique her actions for this kidnapping but you seem to pass on Sean, her father, and on your heroine, Juliette.
Many kids are removed from unsuitable parents every day. Are you now claiming, at this juncture, in your opinion, was Adalind fit mother? Was her upbringing by the Royals a better option? Remember, Sean was the one and according to their plan, turned over Diana to the Royal family. IMO, the gang kidnapped her from the kidnappers.
Again, you are quick to criticize the action they all took, excluding Sean & Juliette, yet you don't mention a better option. or a better situation to contemplate. To me, this was a much better outcome for Diana. To me, when we see her on the end of the last episode, IMO, the good side of the equation. When she says, "we have Wesen to kill", to me, is a good thing. To me, that was Kelly's legacy of her influence on Diana during those first few years of her fast evolving life. I guess, for you, that was not to your liking and she was on the wrong side of that equation.
Quote:until she came back to Nick's and exposed the child to grave danger.Here you go again. You claim, Kelly exposed Diana to "GRAVE" danger, yet you totally discount Juliette's action for being the culprit of putting both, the mother of the love of her life and Diana. You claim Kelly was careless, yet you show no opinion on what Juliette did to make her feel safe. Don't you find that a "bit" odd? Don't you see that Juliette was the one that put both in danger by using the trust Kelly had in her? Does Juliette have any skin in this situation?