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+--- Thread: If Wesen came out... (/Thread-If-Wesen-came-out)
RE: If Wesen came out... - irukandji - 03-12-2018
(03-11-2018, 09:17 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: You are right. The show said Hitler was a wesen and he was able to unite German.
But considering the show context, Hitler never showed everyone he was a wesen. If German people knew, we don't know what would have happened. Actually, Hitler managed to control German because of the coins... It had nothing to do with he being a wesen or not.
The coins couldn't control the Germans who invaded Austria, or Poland, or France. I believe in the case of Hitler, there was more to it than just the magic behind the coins.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Robyn - 03-12-2018
(03-09-2018, 10:40 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: What I mean is that considering the show and the entire context (and the way the show portrait wesen), I can't see in the beginning of human / wesen / grimm history they working together because if that had happened the show would be completely different.
What I am trying to do is to create a theory that works fine with the overall series context. Think about the council, for example. If I understood correctly, it doesn’t exist to protect humans. It exists to protect wesen. It was said in some episode (I think the bank robber one) that if human find out about wesen human would hunt them as it happened in the past. So the idea of hiding the wesen is to protect them from humans to hunt them. Would it happen if wesen were in a big quantity?
The limited background and explanations the show provided makes forming a feasible history that fits within the show’s context difficult. Wesen were generally portrayed in an unsavory light to support the existence of Grimm, and specifically that Nick needed to be a Grimm in Portland. But the creative team only addressed what-when-why-how if an episode/storyline required it.
That Hitler was a Wesen and Moses may have once possessed the staff were tidbits of historical information without benefit of how a real life historical figure fits within the show’s fictional world. Eve mentioned Hitler’s ‘secret vision for a world ruled by Wesen’ because the season arc was about a Wesen uprising, but I don’t recall anyone in BC referencing Hitler as revered figure in Wesen history.
After six seasons, we know Wesen lived in secrecy out of fear of discovery and annihilation, but we don’t know why they became so afraid of humans - other than Grimm hunted them down and executed them without mercy and their own government council enforced secrecy by penalty of death. But we don’t know why either was necessary.
If Human and Wesen existed when available weaponry was sharp sticks and rocks; how many Grimm would have been required to prevent Wesen superiority over Humans? Or was the show’s premise based on a small number of Wesen throughout history, so only a small number of Grimm were required to balance the playing field?
RE: If Wesen came out... - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:I agree with you that it doesn't much sense. But the show said Hitler was who he was because of the coins. That is the only info we have from the show relating Hitler and his power and he being a wesen.(03-11-2018, 09:17 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: You are right. The show said Hitler was a wesen and he was able to unite German.
But considering the show context, Hitler never showed everyone he was a wesen. If German people knew, we don't know what would have happened. Actually, Hitler managed to control German because of the coins... It had nothing to do with he being a wesen or not.
The coins couldn't control the Germans who invaded Austria, or Poland, or France. I believe in the case of Hitler, there was more to it than just the magic behind the coins.
My point is that considering only the show, Hitler can't be used as an example of nothing because of what the show said. We can't say he was followed by German for being a wesen because we know in real life is wasn't. And in the show, he used the coins. And the show never said how far the coins influence would go.
That is my point. We can't use him because he hasn't enough info for any kind of conclusion.
That is my opinion.
RE: If Wesen came out... - irukandji - 03-12-2018
Adriano, I'm not disagreeing with you. When Hitler was in the vicinity, the show indicated he used the coins for his own advantage. But Hitler wasn't in all places at the same time.
In my opinion, it is possible that for those places where Hitler wasn't making an immediate appearance, wesen, human, and grimms had to work together to make Germany a very powerful country.
RE: If Wesen came out... - dicappatore - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 05:47 AM)Robyn Wrote:(03-09-2018, 10:40 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: What I mean is that considering the show and the entire context (and the way the show portrait wesen), I can't see in the beginning of human / wesen / grimm history they working together because if that had happened the show would be completely different.
What I am trying to do is to create a theory that works fine with the overall series context. Think about the council, for example. If I understood correctly, it doesn’t exist to protect humans. It exists to protect wesen. It was said in some episode (I think the bank robber one) that if human find out about wesen human would hunt them as it happened in the past. So the idea of hiding the wesen is to protect them from humans to hunt them. Would it happen if wesen were in a big quantity?
The limited background and explanations the show provided makes forming a feasible history that fits within the show’s context difficult. Wesen were generally portrayed in an unsavory light to support the existence of Grimm, and specifically that Nick needed to be a Grimm in Portland. But the creative team only addressed what-when-why-how if an episode/storyline required it.
That Hitler was a Wesen and Moses may have once possessed the staff were tidbits of historical information without benefit of how a real life historical figure fits within the show’s fictional world. Eve mentioned Hitler’s ‘secret vision for a world ruled by Wesen’ because the season arc was about a Wesen uprising, but I don’t recall anyone in BC referencing Hitler as revered figure in Wesen history.
After six seasons, we know Wesen lived in secrecy out of fear of discovery and annihilation, but we don’t know why they became so afraid of humans - other than Grimm hunted them down and executed them without mercy and their own government council enforced secrecy by penalty of death. But we don’t know why either was necessary.
If Human and Wesen existed when available weaponry was sharp sticks and rocks; how many Grimm would have been required to prevent Wesen superiority over Humans? Or was the show’s premise based on a small number of Wesen throughout history, so only a small number of Grimm were required to balance the playing field?
As you stated it, Robyn, pretty plainly. This is what they gave us. A fantasy world with lots of holes. As for the Hitler reference, I do not recall Eve's reference to him. I might have forgotten it. I do recall Nick, viewing some old film footage, of Hitler's speeches and Nick, being a Grimm, saw him voge during one of his speeches. That voge was the type that only a Grimm could see, so, Yea, in the show, Hitler being Wesen was a secret.
I see a few contributors, not necessarily the ones on this post, stretch the truth to support their theories but for some others, just for the sake of being different, end up trying to change the whole narrative of the show. Wesen, for the most part, in the show, were the aggressors. Trying to portray them as victims is stretching it a bit too far into the realm of nonsensical absurdity.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 05:47 AM)Robyn Wrote:Robyn, and somehow I like the holes in the show because those holes allow us to use our own imagination to close them. That is why (I think) this forum is so full of interesting and different theories about the show.(03-09-2018, 10:40 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: What I mean is that considering the show and the entire context (and the way the show portrait wesen), I can't see in the beginning of human / wesen / grimm history they working together because if that had happened the show would be completely different.
What I am trying to do is to create a theory that works fine with the overall series context. Think about the council, for example. If I understood correctly, it doesn’t exist to protect humans. It exists to protect wesen. It was said in some episode (I think the bank robber one) that if human find out about wesen human would hunt them as it happened in the past. So the idea of hiding the wesen is to protect them from humans to hunt them. Would it happen if wesen were in a big quantity?
The limited background and explanations the show provided makes forming a feasible history that fits within the show’s context difficult. Wesen were generally portrayed in an unsavory light to support the existence of Grimm, and specifically that Nick needed to be a Grimm in Portland. But the creative team only addressed what-when-why-how if an episode/storyline required it.
That Hitler was a Wesen and Moses may have once possessed the staff were tidbits of historical information without benefit of how a real life historical figure fits within the show’s fictional world. Eve mentioned Hitler’s ‘secret vision for a world ruled by Wesen’ because the season arc was about a Wesen uprising, but I don’t recall anyone in BC referencing Hitler as revered figure in Wesen history.
After six seasons, we know Wesen lived in secrecy out of fear of discovery and annihilation, but we don’t know why they became so afraid of humans - other than Grimm hunted them down and executed them without mercy and their own government council enforced secrecy by penalty of death. But we don’t know why either was necessary.
If Human and Wesen existed when available weaponry was sharp sticks and rocks; how many Grimm would have been required to prevent Wesen superiority over Humans? Or was the show’s premise based on a small number of Wesen throughout history, so only a small number of Grimm were required to balance the playing field?
But beside that, you are completely right in your post.
(03-12-2018, 06:07 AM)irukandji Wrote: Adriano, I'm not disagreeing with you. When Hitler was in the vicinity, the show indicated he used the coins for his own advantage. But Hitler wasn't in all places at the same time.
In my opinion, it is possible that for those places where Hitler wasn't making an immediate appearance, wesen, human, and grimms had to work together to make Germany a very powerful country.
Uhmmm I understood your point here and I think you are completely right. It is possible that Germany soldiers knew about humans, wesen and grimm. It is also probable that they worked together.
But we are talking about a close organization strongly based on hierarchy. It means it is easy to see a human general (for exanple) giving orders to middle level grimm in charge of groups of wesen and humans. It can also have happened in another division that the general was a wesen and the middle level was a human. Either way no one would question the orders because we are talking about the army.
But what about the people living on Germany? Would they know about wesen?
I think I know what you trying to say (Please forgive me and correct me if I am wrong). It is possible that wesen and grimm and humans to work together. You are right. But this depends on under which circumstances?
Just a real example. In Brazil we have a large Jewish community. We also have a large Muslim community. We don't have here they fighting each other. But this doesn't mean they are also peaceful in the middle east or other places in the world.
Maybe the real question is not if they work together. The real question maybe what are the right circumstances that allow them to work together...
The same question can be done in the show. Under which circumstances can grimm, human and wesen work together?
In a small scale, Nick managed to do that (Monroe, Nick, and Hank and so on). Even HW managed to have humans, grimm and wesen working against the BC.
So it is jot about if it is or it is jot possible. It is about how to make it possible.
RE: If Wesen came out... - eric - 03-12-2018
I am sure that some of the real writers for GRIMM come to this forum to hear persons debating their ideas and plots. Most who write for a living want to see how others react and appreciate their 6 years of work. They probably wish they could write like Shakespeare or Poe. I am also sure they say things like "damm, I suggested that and got shot down" or "why didn't we cover that issue with at least by one line of dialogue?". A fantasy show is an unreal story about unreal people, whose conflicts should make sense. Let's not beat up each other over "unbelievable" or "dumb" ideas.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Robyn - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 06:21 AM)dicappatore Wrote: As you stated it, Robyn, pretty plainly. This is what they gave us. A fantasy world with lots of holes. As for the Hitler reference, I do not recall Eve's reference to him. I might have forgotten it. I do recall Nick, viewing some old film footage, of Hitler's speeches and Nick, being a Grimm, saw him voge during one of his speeches. That voge was the type that only a Grimm could see, so, Yea, in the show, Hitler being Wesen was a secret.I often get events and timeframe mixed up, and have confused a comment on the forum for something that happened on the show, so I looked up the Hitler reference.
This was on Grimm Wikia:
As Eve explained to Nick, Hitler's secret vision was a world ruled by Wesen. She drew a comparison between Hitler and Black Claw, who share a similar goal. ("A Reptile Dysfunction")
(03-12-2018, 06:21 AM)dicappatore Wrote: I see a few contributors, not necessarily the ones on this post, stretch the truth to support their theories but for some others, just for the sake of being different, end up trying to change the whole narrative of the show. Wesen, for the most part, in the show, were the aggressors. Trying to portray them as victims is stretching it a bit too far into the realm of nonsensical absurdity.I had issues with the Nick character in the beginning because I saw him as a cop who was also a Grimm, but most of those issues were resolved when I realized the show was presenting him as a Grimm who was a cop. Understanding the show’s emphasis made a difference in how I viewed the character.
(03-12-2018, 06:27 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Robyn, and somehow I like the holes in the show because those holes allow us to use our own imagination to close them. That is why (I think) this forum is so full of interesting and different theories about the show.I like some things to remain unknown for that anxiously awaited reveal - such as the seven keys. But background that serves to develop and expand a show’s major theme, not so much.
(03-12-2018, 08:00 AM)eric Wrote: I am sure that some of the real writers for GRIMM come to this forum to hear persons debating their ideas and plots. Most who write for a living want to see how others react and appreciate their 6 years of work. They probably wish they could write like Shakespeare or Poe. I am also sure they say things like "damm, I suggested that and got shot down" or "why didn't we cover that issue with at least by one line of dialogue?". A fantasy show is an unreal story about unreal people, whose conflicts should make sense. Let's not beat up each other over "unbelievable" or "dumb" ideas.That’s interesting. I would have assumed pretty much the opposite - that show creators/writers don’t really care about the opinions posted in fan forums, and look to ratings and the network’s interest in renewing their show.
I agree fictional worlds don’t require preciseness, especially in sci-fi and fantasy shows where anything can make sense when there’s nothing to compare it too.
RE: If Wesen came out... - irukandji - 03-12-2018
(03-12-2018, 03:24 PM)Robyn Wrote: That’s interesting. I would have assumed pretty much the opposite - that show creators/writers don’t really care about the opinions posted in fan forums, and look to ratings and the network’s interest in renewing their show.
I'm inclined to agree. I can't imagine a writer picking through innumerable Grimm forums in the hopes of maybe happening upon a great idea or to view opinions. Can you imagine them wading through some of the trash that's been posted here or yet another "Juliette vs Adalind" debate? It would be a monumental waste of time.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Hell Rell - 03-13-2018
I don't think Eric was being literal when he talked about writers checking the forum.
That aside, I am interested in what goes on in the writers' room. I would really like to hear from the writers who disagree with certain arcs. I already know that wouldn't happen unless the writer had a big enough name and even then it would be unlikely. I'm certain that there were writers lower in the pecking order who wanted to make some sense of just about every plotline but was overruled. I assume there's someone like that in every room no matter how popular the show is. There had to be some on shows like Grimm and even a phenomenon like GoT where someone on the staff objected to a lot of the nonsense that got put on screen.