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+--- Thread: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm (/Thread-Who-is-the-worst-most-corrupt-cop-on-Grimm)
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - irukandji - 01-09-2018
So are you saying that if someone were to provide the encyclopedia brittanica of information to support their opinion that Nick is the most corrupt cop, you are going to change your position and agree with them?
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - Hell Rell - 01-09-2018
(01-09-2018, 02:05 PM)irukandji Wrote: So are you saying that if someone were to provide the encyclopedia brittanica of information to support their opinion that Nick is the most corrupt cop, you are going to change your position and agree with them?
I would take what happened on the show and their motivations into account like I already have done. I'm not concerned with winning the debate. I'm concerned with identifying the most corrupt cop on the show. A convincing argument stays a convincing argument no matter who's selected.
Furthermore, I do take other people's opinion into account. I thought what Robyn said about people like Monroe and Rosalee being corrupted by Nick or Renard may not hold weight because they weren't exactly being forced to dance to either of their tunes. I think there is validity in that statement. None of the gang may have actually been personally corrupted by either one. The amount of influence they had using nefarious means would then have to be taken into account and Renard comes out far ahead as far as I'm concerned. Willingly hopping on the BC train is enough for Renard to claim the top spot by itself.
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - eric - 01-09-2018
When deciding what is the more correct argument, I do not consider the number of words or examples used. If I think they are not correct they can not convince me. When one of my children tried me to convince me by trying to talk me to death, it almost never succeed. I see Renard as corrupt based on what I know about corruption. None of my real life heroes are perfect, most of my real life villains have good points but in total are bad. Hitler's dog loved him, he was still a bad dude. Nick may have skirted real police procedure in "convincing" the chef to confess but short of allowing Monroe's friends to have a late night snack, how else could the chef be stopped? Hank and Wu worked with Nick because after they entered the Grimm world, they understood different rules applied in this different world. They did not change to personally profit--I do not remember any of them getting pay raises, promotions, or commendations. They were just stopping killers.
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - irukandji - 01-09-2018
(01-09-2018, 04:24 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I would take what happened on the show and their motivations into account like I already have done. I'm not concerned with winning the debate. I'm concerned with identifying the most corrupt cop on the show. A convincing argument stays a convincing argument no matter who's selected.
What exactly does that mean, "a convincing argument stays a convincing argument no matter who's selected"?
I pose this question because I don't believe in generating convincing arguments. What would be convincing to me is not convincing to someone reading my post. Add to that that I am citing Nick as the most corrupt, not Renard. That right there is perceived as the proverbial red flag waving at a charging bull. The sum total to that is complete and total disagreement.
No one's going to look at my statement and compliment it on being convincing despite the fact that I view Nick as the more corrupt cop. Sometimes the response is a very cordial, "I disagree". But that isn't consistent or constant. I don't even want to go into what usually comes with having a contrary opinion.
The other thing I want to point out here with regard to debate is that plenty of evidence has been provided to support Nick as a corrupt cop. It's just not accepted, or it's completely ignored. Why? Because viewing Nick as the most corrupt cop is an unpopular opinion. Therefore any evidence provided is not accepted as evidence or poopoo'd with derogatory comments.
If this was a thread talking about how evil Juliette was, there would be no cockamamie rules applied about having conclusive or detailed opinions. Why? Because the opinion is a popular one. The character is not.
(01-09-2018, 04:24 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Furthermore, I do take other people's opinion into account. I thought what Robyn said about people like Monroe and Rosalee being corrupted by Nick or Renard may not hold weight because they weren't exactly being forced to dance to either of their tunes. I think there is validity in that statement. None of the gang may have actually been personally corrupted by either one. The amount of influence they had using nefarious means would then have to be taken into account and Renard comes out far ahead as far as I'm concerned. Willingly hopping on the BC train is enough for Renard to claim the top spot by itself.
A valid point. However, I must also point out that there are many here who try to tone down Adalind's crimes by calling her a "pawn". What's the difference?
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - Hell Rell - 01-09-2018
(01-09-2018, 07:27 PM)irukandji Wrote:(01-09-2018, 04:24 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I would take what happened on the show and their motivations into account like I already have done. I'm not concerned with winning the debate. I'm concerned with identifying the most corrupt cop on the show. A convincing argument stays a convincing argument no matter who's selected.
What exactly does that mean, "a convincing argument stays a convincing argument no matter who's selected"?
I pose this question because I don't believe in generating convincing arguments. What would be convincing to me is not convincing to someone reading my post. Add to that that I am citing Nick as the most corrupt, not Renard. That right there is perceived as the proverbial red flag waving at a charging bull. The sum total to that is complete and total disagreement.
No one's going to look at my statement and compliment it on being convincing despite the fact that I view Nick as the more corrupt cop. Sometimes the response is a very cordial, "I disagree". But that isn't consistent or constant. I don't even want to go into what usually comes with having a contrary opinion.
I don't find any point in saying I disagree without explaining why. The worst thing that could happen to this thread is someone just saying character X or character Y is the most corrupt without going any further. Plus, comparisons are going to made because the word "most" was used.
(01-09-2018, 07:27 PM)irukandji Wrote: If this was a thread talking about how evil Juliette was, there would be no cockamamie rules applied about having conclusive or detailed opinions. Why? Because the opinion is a popular one. The character is not.
I've previously mentioned I've taken issue with some of the things said about Juliette. I've gotten into some lengthy debates because I thought people were going too far and painting everything she said or did as evil or having some underlying terrible motivation behind it. I made it clear how much I thought people were being unfair in regards to her character. I don't even think everything Renard has done is horrible and I think he's done some good things despite being the most corrupt cop.
(01-09-2018, 07:27 PM)irukandji Wrote: A valid point. However, I must also point out that there are many here who try to tone down Adalind's crimes by calling her a "pawn". What's the difference?
I never thought Adalind should be let off the hook for being a pawn. That's exactly what she was most of the time but it doesn't excuse her. It just helps to explain her actions. You probably already know that I take issue with Renard being given a pass more than anyone else. He has to be blamed along with Adalind.
Besides, plenty of posters have said Adalind was at her worst when she was a human. I didn't see anyone disputing that and most people thought Adalind deserved to have her ass kicked at the time of the Biest fight.
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - irukandji - 01-09-2018
(01-09-2018, 07:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I don't find any point in saying I disagree without explaining why. The worst thing that could happen to this thread is someone just saying character X or character Y is the most corrupt without going any further. Plus, comparisons are going to made because the word "most" was used.
No, the worst thing is to suddenly begin applying rules for contrary opinions. If I simply said Renard is the most corrupt cop, exactly how many people would come out of the woodwork to call me on the carpet for not providing a detailed reason? I'll tell you how many right now; not one. Why? Because they would agree.
I provided evidence earlier in the thread. I talked about Nick going to torture the wesen who was masquerading as the one of the evil grimms. That was completely nixed because Nick didn't actually torture the wesen. Hank stopped him before he could do anything so therefore even the thought of corruption doesn't apply.
Izzy provided evidence to show why Nick would be considered a corrupt cop. He wasn't applauded for providing a convincing argument. If you'll notice, for the most part, his post was ignored. Instead the argument shifted toward corrupt as meaning "personal gain" or "acting dishonestly for money". And posters stuck to those two definitions because to them, it was easy to see how these definitions didn't apply to Nick.
When I provided additional definitions to support that corrupt goes beyond what was posted, my post was not applauded as bringing more depth to the term and therefore, adding to the discussion. Instead it turned to the Nick and company being rogues.
I'm not looking for accolades or compliments. That's not why I post. But I find it idiotic that someone could simply state Renard is a corrupt a++hole and no one would bat an eye. Yet, state Nick is corrupt and one needs a thesis to back up their statement.
(01-09-2018, 07:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I've previously mentioned I've taken issue with some of the things said about Juliette. I've gotten into some lengthy debates because I thought people were going too far and painting everything she said or did as evil or having some underlying terrible motivation behind it. I made it clear how much I thought people were being unfair in regards to her character. I don't even think everything Renard has done is horrible and I think he's done some good things despite being the most corrupt cop.
That's good. You know what I have seen in those threads? One liners stating Juliette's a bitch and she should have stayed dead. I have yet to see anyone coming back and stating a detailed explanation should be provided to support why said poster feels Juliette is a bitch and why she should stay dead.
(01-09-2018, 07:27 PM)irukandji Wrote: I never thought Adalind should be let off the hook for being a pawn. That's exactly what she was most of the time but it doesn't excuse her. It just helps to explain her actions. You probably already know that I take issue with Renard being given a pass more than anyone else. He has to be blamed along with Adalind.
I do. I also read posts and digest what's being written. However, while you may not see Adalind being excused for her actions, there are posters here who do and that's why she's known as a pawn.
With regard to Nick, while Monroe and Rosalee are free to make up their own minds to either fall under Nick's influence or just say no, it is a different story for Hank and Wu. They have to work with Nick, so it's not necessarily his influence, but his gut feeling that they're relying on. Because Nick is a natural irritant to wesen and continually ignores that one huge risk, he places Hank in danger every time he confronts a wesen. The same would apply to Wu when he's on assignment with Nick.
(01-09-2018, 07:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Besides, plenty of posters have said Adalind was at her worst when she was a human. I didn't see anyone disputing that and most people thought Adalind deserved to have her ass kicked at the time of the Biest fight.
Sure they did. But the moment it was stated that she was pregnant with Nick's child, all was forgotten and forgiven.
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - Robyn - 01-10-2018
We see fictional characters as good or bad or somewhere in between based on our already determined views. Those who hold strict ideals of what law enforcement must be regardless of the situation aren’t going to make allowance just because the characters are in a fairytale setting that doesn’t fit modern day society. Those who are comfortable with give and take depending on the situation and the characters’ rationale will be more flexible. Neither view is right or wrong, or requires lists with supporting evidence.
At the end of the day it’s a fictional show about fictional characters living fictional lives that provides interesting and enjoyable debates, but not lessons in life. Whatever my view of my real life local law enforcement, nothing about a fictional TV show designed for entertainment and advertising revenue is going to change it.
So while I enjoy delving into what the creative team intended with their stories and characters, I don’t see the point of page after page of the same argument about different points of view that aren’t likely to change and will never meld the fictional world with real life. The idea of a human detective and fairytale Grimm hybrid fighting fairytale creatures works on a TV show, but not so much when compared to real life - unless we want to shift the forum's purpose to include discussing real life issues such as rampant prejudice, erosion of the Constitution, police sanctioned murder, government overreach, politicians available to the highest bidder, and on and on and on. And do we really want to open that can of smelly worms in a place that allows us to be temporarily free of real life issues?
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - irukandji - 01-10-2018
(01-10-2018, 05:05 AM)Robyn Wrote: At the end of the day it’s a fictional show about fictional characters living fictional lives that provides interesting and enjoyable debates, but not lessons in life.
But if this is the case, then why have discussions about such things as Adalind's redemption? Redemption is not a fictional concept. It is a lesson in life.
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - Henry of green - 01-10-2018
(01-09-2018, 08:30 PM)irukandji Wrote:(01-09-2018, 07:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I don't find any point in saying I disagree without explaining why. The worst thing that could happen to this thread is someone just saying character X or character Y is the most corrupt without going any further. Plus, comparisons are going to made because the word "most" was used.
No, the worst thing is to suddenly begin applying rules for contrary opinions. If I simply said Renard is the most corrupt cop, exactly how many people would come out of the woodwork to call me on the carpet for not providing a detailed reason? I'll tell you how many right now; not one. Why? Because they would agree.
I provided evidence earlier in the thread. I talked about Nick going to torture the wesen who was masquerading as the one of the evil grimms. That was completely nixed because Nick didn't actually torture the wesen. Hank stopped him before he could do anything so therefore even the thought of corruption doesn't apply.
Izzy provided evidence to show why Nick would be considered a corrupt cop. He wasn't applauded for providing a convincing argument. If you'll notice, for the most part, his post was ignored. Instead the argument shifted toward corrupt as meaning "personal gain" or "acting dishonestly for money". And posters stuck to those two definitions because to them, it was easy to see how these definitions didn't apply to Nick.
When I provided additional definitions to support that corrupt goes beyond what was posted, my post was not applauded as bringing more depth to the term and therefore, adding to the discussion. Instead it turned to the Nick and company being rogues.
I'm not looking for accolades or compliments. That's not why I post. But I find it idiotic that someone could simply state Renard is a corrupt a++hole and no one would bat an eye. Yet, state Nick is corrupt and one needs a thesis to back up their statement.
(01-09-2018, 07:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: I've previously mentioned I've taken issue with some of the things said about Juliette. I've gotten into some lengthy debates because I thought people were going too far and painting everything she said or did as evil or having some underlying terrible motivation behind it. I made it clear how much I thought people were being unfair in regards to her character. I don't even think everything Renard has done is horrible and I think he's done some good things despite being the most corrupt cop.
That's good. You know what I have seen in those threads? One liners stating Juliette's a bitch and she should have stayed dead. I have yet to see anyone coming back and stating a detailed explanation should be provided to support why said poster feels Juliette is a bitch and why she should stay dead.
(01-09-2018, 07:27 PM)irukandji Wrote: I never thought Adalind should be let off the hook for being a pawn. That's exactly what she was most of the time but it doesn't excuse her. It just helps to explain her actions. You probably already know that I take issue with Renard being given a pass more than anyone else. He has to be blamed along with Adalind.
I do. I also read posts and digest what's being written. However, while you may not see Adalind being excused for her actions, there are posters here who do and that's why she's known as a pawn.
With regard to Nick, while Monroe and Rosalee are free to make up their own minds to either fall under Nick's influence or just say no, it is a different story for Hank and Wu. They have to work with Nick, so it's not necessarily his influence, but his gut feeling that they're relying on. Because Nick is a natural irritant to wesen and continually ignores that one huge risk, he places Hank in danger every time he confronts a wesen. The same would apply to Wu when he's on assignment with Nick.
(01-09-2018, 07:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Besides, plenty of posters have said Adalind was at her worst when she was a human. I didn't see anyone disputing that and most people thought Adalind deserved to have her ass kicked at the time of the Biest fight.
Sure they did. But the moment it was stated that she was pregnant with Nick's child, all was forgotten and forgiven.
Adalind did terrible things certainly and she was a terrible person and all wasn’t forgiven rigth away she had to earn her forgiveness. She is the only charecter on the whole show to apologize to all the everyone.
RE: Who is the worst most corrupt cop on Grimm - irukandji - 01-10-2018
(01-10-2018, 05:50 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Adalind did terrible things certainly and she was a terrible person and all wasn’t forgiven rigth away she had to earn her forgiveness. She is the only charecter on the whole show to apologize to all the everyone.
But henry, isn't your opinion altered because you really love the character?