(09-01-2017, 06:21 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: This isn't about Nick and Adalind but it does deal with this question and why Nick and Adalind could come together as a family. Eve/Juliette was healed by the stick this changed her hexenbiest spirit somehow it cleaned it in someway.

Eve/Juliette knew Nick for a long period and she knew that Nick could never of look on her again with love becasue his mother's death. Now if you leave a relationship buy mutual agreement as they had done in season 6 should we (I hate this word) assume that Eve/Juliette doesn't want anyone including others to cause pain to Nick and she thinks she has cause so much.

She also see Nick and Adalind trying to make and getting it done a Grimm hexenbiest thing work, but is worried that Adalind beast may not let this happen? So she has to question what will Adalind become, the good mother or the good hexenbiest?

Eve/Juliette doesn't want Nick back but feels she owes him some peace and hopes Adalind can give it to Nick but does have some doubts?

Thoughts ideas from this point?

(09-01-2017, 04:44 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(08-31-2017, 10:03 PM)wesen Wrote: Change the thread? If you intended to stick to the original topic, you would give me reasons as to why Nick and Adalind clicked. The question wasn't 'Did Nick and Adalind click?' The question was 'Why did Nick and Adalind click?' Yes, there is a huge difference between those two questions. See if you can figure it out.

No it wasn't. Again, here is what you wrote:

Quote:I don't want to turn this into an Adalind vs Juliette bashing thread, I just want to give out some of the reasons why I think Adalind and Nick clicked much more than Nick and Juliette did.

That isn't the same thing as posting the question, "Why did Nick and Adalind click"? You never posted the question in your thread, nor were you specific that everyone had to agree with **what you think**

So why would I stick to the original topic when you yourself didn't even stick to the original topic? You stated you don't want to turn this into another Adalind vs Juliette bashing thread. Yet that's exactly what you did because you kept bringing Juliette into it.

And why not just tell me tell me you wanted to discuss why Nick and Adalind clicked when you saw my first post. That's it. Simple. Instead you continued to argue with my posts and that led me to believe you wanted to debate. *You* did that, not me.

Next time, be clear. No one knows exactly what you want to discuss when all you do is tell others what you think and don't pose the question you should have asked in the first place.

(09-01-2017, 07:23 AM)dicappatore Wrote:

(09-01-2017, 06:21 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: This isn't about Nick and Adalind but it does deal with this question and why Nick and Adalind could come together as a family. Eve/Juliette was healed by the stick this changed her hexenbiest spirit somehow it cleaned it in someway.

Eve/Juliette knew Nick for a long period and she knew that Nick could never of look on her again with love becasue his mother's death. Now if you leave a relationship buy mutual agreement as they had done in season 6 should we (I hate this word) assume that Eve/Juliette doesn't want anyone including others to cause pain to Nick and she thinks she has cause so much.

She also see Nick and Adalind trying to make and getting it done a Grimm hexenbiest thing work, but is worried that Adalind beast may not let this happen? So she has to question what will Adalind become, the good mother or the good hexenbiest?

Eve/Juliette doesn't want Nick back but feels she owes him some peace and hopes Adalind can give it to Nick but does have some doubts?

Thoughts ideas from this point?

js, I think you hit the nail on the head on how or what Juliette finally has become at the end.

Quote:I can understand why at the initial phase, their relationship was described as being somewhat like stockholm syndrome.

Quote:My original post was about why I thought Adalind and Nick clicked. You implied that they didn't click, but only ended up together because they had no choice coz no one else wanted them.

Quote:Yet Nick thought she was a good enough woman to be his girlfriend and maybe even his wife. Meisner seemed to have only good non sexual thoughts about Adalind, specifically about her being a good mother. Nick thought so too, when he told Monroe she was an amazing mother to Kelly. So you're wrong about that as well.

Quote:… Nick did fight to get Adalind back as was seen in season 6, he told Renard that Adalind was going with him. Why would he say that if he didn't care about Adalind at all?

Quote:Just because she fell in love with Nick doesn't make her a mouse with no life of her own.

Quote:There is no reason to criticise her for falling in love with a man that she likes, who is kind to her, and who has a baby with her.

Quote:I brought up Stockholm Syndrome and transference following the Nick/Adalind interaction in episodes 5-6-7. To me, Nick telling Adalind that Juliette’s return didn’t change the way he felt about her, that they immediately shifted from uncomfortable dinner conversation to a comfortable morning routine, the table conversation/kiss, all suggested that both, but especially Nick, was spurred to leap full speed ahead with the ‘relationship’ over the fear that Juliette’s return would destroy the peaceful arrangement they’d managed to establish.

Quote:Technically, there wasn’t anyone who wanted either of them. Renard wasn’t interested in Adalind or family, it was BC, for some reason the show never substantiated, who wanted to create a family image for Renard. And who knows what the Juliette, Eve, and Juliette/Eve characters wanted or didn’t want. Because the creative team bounced that character combination around to fit the moment, there was never a clear distinction of who and what Juliette had become. The only fact actually established was that G & K didn’t want Eve and Juliette/Eve in S5 & S6 to have any connection to raging Hexenbiest Juliette in S4 - to the point that they ‘cleansed her soul’ with a stick whammy before returning her to Nick’s circle.

Quote:Yet Nick thought she was a good enough woman to be his girlfriend and maybe even his wife. Meisner seemed to have only good non sexual thoughts about Adalind, specifically about her being a good mother. Nick thought so too, when he told Monroe she was an amazing mother to Kelly. So you're wrong about that as well.
Nick didn’t actually tell Monroe that Adalind was an amazing mother. There was a hint of sarcasm when he said: “Who would've thought that she would've made such a wonderful mother?"

Quote:During the same conversation, Nick tells Monroe he doesn’t know how Adalind feels about him because they never talk about it. Nick omits that they at least touched on the subject during their table conversation in E7. But we should take into account that E9 was set up to introduce the shift in Nick’s behavior toward Adalind, and how it fit with the Nick/Adalind so far or that Nick was made to look like a arrogant jerk obviously wasn’t important to the creative team.

Quote:Nick’s feelings about Adalind were as indeterminate as who/what Juliette was supposed to be. Nick might have treated Adalind like a girlfriend and potential wife when they were alone, but not when in view of his friends. He was uncomfortable that Adalind used their first kiss to confirm he wasn’t Renard. So at that point it’s just as likely that Nick was pushing for Adalind to come with him because he knew his son would be wherever Adalind was as it was that he actually wanted Adalind with him. Nick decided with Renard, not Adalind, that Diana would stay with Renard, and told Adalind as much later in the episode. Nick had already stolen Diana from Adalind once, if his love for Adalind was in the forefront of his decision making process, he wouldn’t have agreed to any arrangement that made Adalind feel she was losing her daughter again. It wasn’t until Adalind refused to go along with the two men’s agreement that Nick shifted to Renard & Adalind sharing Diana.

Quote:It shouldn’t have, but reality is that she did. Adalind became a shell of her former self. Becoming a devoted mother and/or falling in love shouldn’t rob a character of her identity. Adalind went from walking into the belly of her enemies to protect her unborn child in S4 to giving up on her first child in S5. The Adalind through S4 would have never passed up any chance to find her daughter, no matter how slight. Meisner’s unexpected appearance would have been an equally unexpected opportunity that she wouldn’t have wasted. Adalind eventually got Diana back through happenstance, not through perseverance, and especially not through any help from Nick or his friends.

Quote:Gratitude, even loving someone for being kind and helpful, isn’t necessarily a basis for falling in love. The way it was presented on the show, Adalind was obsessed with maintaining the life she’d established with Nick. She was in love with the idea of being in a loving and committed relationship and being accepted into a supportive group. The reality was that Adalind was accepted by Nick’s friends because she was currently with Nick and the mother of his child. Had Nick decided to take Kelly from Adalind, his friends would have rallied around him and taken another child from Adalind. Based on S5’s characterization of Adalind, had she determined a relationship with Nick wasn’t viable, she would have likely made better use of her time with Renard and worked towards establishing an arrangement that benefited her and both children. Considering that she hated Renard for ‘giving their daughter away’ but was in denial that Nick took Diana, it was more about what she wanted and believed she could have with Nick than Renard giving their daughter away. The S3 & S4 Adalind didn’t put anyone ahead of her children, not even the central character.

Quote:There are many reasons Nick & Adalind would naturally click. Nick/Adalind could have been equally complicated, compelling, and entertaining. But it wasn’t. It was contrived, manipulated, and sidestepped for the sake of easy storytelling, cool action scenes, woe is me drama, and awesome reveals that fell flat. It was in essence a plot twist that forced the characters and their alliance/relationship to devolve and become stagnant. There was a smorgasbord of history to make the headstrong Grimm and feisty Hexenbiest the most interesting and formidable alliance on the show. Instead, Adalind was relegated to Juliette 2.0, the version of Juliette Nick wished he’d had, the one who accepted his Grimm life without wanting to be involved and needed him to be her knight in shining armor. Nick continued to pound his fists against the wind, never strategizing, never identifying who his enemy actually was while Renard continued to lead him by the nose until reality smacked him in the face.

And as a result, Nick and Adalind actually becoming a couple and Nick's long awaited 'I love you' fell as flat as the rest.

(09-03-2017, 01:27 AM)wesen Wrote: I know you may not have been satisfied in how the relationship between Nick and Adalind was depicted, and I respect that. There were certain things the writers could have done better, maybe their views on women and relationships were based on adolescent fantasies, or typical male desires rather than an actual realistic example of a relationship. For myself, despite some things that I found lacking (again Nick should have been a lot more vocal about his feelings for Adalind sooner) I was overall satisfied with the way things played out. I don't think Adalind became the Juliette that Nick wanted all along, she still had that sassy quality to her and protective mother instincts that Juliette lacked. Even her scheming personality was still there, though maybe not so apparent, when she convinced Renard to take a shower and to stay a bit longer in order to talk about Diana. I think the character Nick was always meant to be written almost as an old fashioned throw back to the chivalrous knights of old, the kind who fought with their fists or swords in order to defend/protect their lady's honour, due to the fairytale background of the show.

(09-03-2017, 01:27 AM)wesen Wrote:

Quote:I brought up Stockholm Syndrome and transference following the Nick/Adalind interaction in episodes 5-6-7. To me, Nick telling Adalind that Juliette’s return didn’t change the way he felt about her, that they immediately shifted from uncomfortable dinner conversation to a comfortable morning routine, the table conversation/kiss, all suggested that both, but especially Nick, was spurred to leap full speed ahead with the ‘relationship’ over the fear that Juliette’s return would destroy the peaceful arrangement they’d managed to establish.

I think that the writers kinda knew where they wanted the relationship between Nick and Adalind to go even in the early episodes of season 5. In episode 3 Lost Boys, Nick and Adalind talk about being each other's 'first'. I thought it was a cute way for the writers to hint that something more than friendship was going to develop between them, I read another post from this forum about how this was scene was depicted to show Adalind and Nick as being two sides of the same coin, both destined and needing/wanting to be together. There were also scenes prior to Juliette/Eve appearing of Nick and Adalind starting to develop a closer relationship. In Episode 4 Maiden Quest, the first scenes are of Nick and Adalind acting almost like a married couple, comfortable with each other, sharing intimate information about themselves and I think Adalind even calls Nick 'honey' at one point. Also, Adalind opens up herself to Nick about being worried about him, and he ends up hugging her in an intimate embrace. Oh and also, of course their unusual sleeping arrangements which even Truble called into question. Maybe the arrival of Juliette/Eve did spur Nick to develop a more intimate/sexual relationship with Adalind, but there were already signs that they were already progressing to that kind of intimate/sexual relationship even prior to Juliette/Eve's reappearance. As for transference, I don't know if that is what Nick developed in response to Juliette/Eve's reappearance but I've read a little about it, and it's actually a very unhealthy/unstable/negative way to form a basis of a relationship. In fact, serial killers are known to use transference when they choose their victims, and it is also happens sometimes between a therapist and a client. The reason why I don't think idea of transference applies in Nick's and Adalind's situation, is because Nick's distrust of Adalind didn't stem from Juliette's betrayal. Whatever distrust/ambiguous feelings he has towards Adalind was due to Adalind's actions in the past, so he sees Adalind not as a reminder of Juliette, rather he sees her as her as own individual person.

Quote:Technically, there wasn’t anyone who wanted either of them. Renard wasn’t interested in Adalind or family, it was BC, for some reason the show never substantiated, who wanted to create a family image for Renard. And who knows what the Juliette, Eve, and Juliette/Eve characters wanted or didn’t want. Because the creative team bounced that character combination around to fit the moment, there was never a clear distinction of who and what Juliette had become. The only fact actually established was that G & K didn’t want Eve and Juliette/Eve in S5 & S6 to have any connection to raging Hexenbiest Juliette in S4 - to the point that they ‘cleansed her soul’ with a stick whammy before returning her to Nick’s circle.

Yes, the writers dropped the ball several times in their depiction of the various characters in the show, but I don't think the writers intended for Nick and Adalind to end up together because no one else wanted them. I know Renard agreed to play happy families with Adalind because of BC, but he was also shown willing to form an actual intimate relationship with Adalind, maybe not based on love, but enough to be considered a proper relationship. As for Juliette/Eve, I think the writers were unsure about whether they wanted to have a love triangle, and so they had moments where Juliette/Eve did still show enough interest in Nick for viewers to question whether she still wanted to go back with him.

Quote:Yet Nick thought she was a good enough woman to be his girlfriend and maybe even his wife. Meisner seemed to have only good non sexual thoughts about Adalind, specifically about her being a good mother. Nick thought so too, when he told Monroe she was an amazing mother to Kelly. So you're wrong about that as well.
Nick didn’t actually tell Monroe that Adalind was an amazing mother. There was a hint of sarcasm when he said: “Who would've thought that she would've made such a wonderful mother?"

I didn't get the impression it was sarcasm, more so incredulity that Adalind would have turned out to be such a good mother. And it's not unrealistic for him to react that way, because the only times he's ever interacted with her prior to their current relationship was when she tried to destroy/ruin his life.

Quote:During the same conversation, Nick tells Monroe he doesn’t know how Adalind feels about him because they never talk about it. Nick omits that they at least touched on the subject during their table conversation in E7. But we should take into account that E9 was set up to introduce the shift in Nick’s behavior toward Adalind, and how it fit with the Nick/Adalind so far or that Nick was made to look like a arrogant jerk obviously wasn’t important to the creative team.

I rewatched episode 7 again, the table conversation they had didn't really touch on how they felt about each other. It was more so an expression of their sexual desire brimming to the surface, rather than anything to do with their feelings. Adalind also didn't make it clear to Nick what she felt about him. In fact, she was the one who kind of backed off after they kissed, stating that what they did was bad/wrong, and Nick actually disagreed with her, saying that it was just complicated at that time. Then she mentions that if things were to heat up between them, they needed to make sure that it was because they both wanted it. So I don't think that Nick saying to Monroe that they didn't talk about their feelings was unbelievable, because that conversation occurred before Adalind told Nick that she loved him and slept with him.

Quote:Nick’s feelings about Adalind were as indeterminate as who/what Juliette was supposed to be. Nick might have treated Adalind like a girlfriend and potential wife when they were alone, but not when in view of his friends. He was uncomfortable that Adalind used their first kiss to confirm he wasn’t Renard. So at that point it’s just as likely that Nick was pushing for Adalind to come with him because he knew his son would be wherever Adalind was as it was that he actually wanted Adalind with him. Nick decided with Renard, not Adalind, that Diana would stay with Renard, and told Adalind as much later in the episode. Nick had already stolen Diana from Adalind once, if his love for Adalind was in the forefront of his decision making process, he wouldn’t have agreed to any arrangement that made Adalind feel she was losing her daughter again. It wasn’t until Adalind refused to go along with the two men’s agreement that Nick shifted to Renard & Adalind sharing Diana.

I'm going to have to rewatch that episode again, but I think Nick made it clear from the start to Adalind that she needed to share custody with Renard or else it would make things worse for them. Adalind didn't want to, but realised that was the only way for her to be reunited with Nick. I also don't think Nick was in any position to try to stop Renard from raising his daughter, first because Diana would most likely attack him, second because Nick seems to have learnt from his past mistakes about trying to keep a parent from being with their own child. Maybe the writers should have depicted it better on screen though, I'll give you that.

As for Nick not wanting to share details of his first kiss with Adalind in front of his friends, I actually interpreted the scene differently. I thought that the writers intended to signify the importance of Adalind's role in Nick's life, because she was the one who spoke up about their first kiss, just when Eve/Juliette was about to do so. It seemed to me almost an official confirmation of their relationship status, because Nick's friends aren't shocked by the revelation of this information. Then we see a little bit more about Nick's thoughts when he reveals that he considers the kiss at the Brehmen Ruins to be their 'first kiss'. I also find this important because that shows to me that Nick's current view of Adalind is affecting how he views their past history. In short, he seems to be romanticising their past. However, it seems that Adalind isn't so love struck that she doesn't have a clear eyed view about their history. She is the one who is fully aware about the reality of their past relationship, not Nick. Even prior to episode 3 season 6, we see intimate glances between Nick and Adalind in front of their friends, particularly when Truble asks Nick to go with her on a mission for HW. His statement that someone needs to stay and look after things was full of meaning, especially when he and Adalind stare at each other, right in full view of their friends. So I think the Scooby gang were already aware of their relationship, even without Nick having to declare it to the gang. I just can't remember if Nick was ever demonstrative or shared intimate moments between him and Juliette to his friends.

Quote:It shouldn’t have, but reality is that she did. Adalind became a shell of her former self. Becoming a devoted mother and/or falling in love shouldn’t rob a character of her identity. Adalind went from walking into the belly of her enemies to protect her unborn child in S4 to giving up on her first child in S5. The Adalind through S4 would have never passed up any chance to find her daughter, no matter how slight. Meisner’s unexpected appearance would have been an equally unexpected opportunity that she wouldn’t have wasted. Adalind eventually got Diana back through happenstance, not through perseverance, and especially not through any help from Nick or his friends.

That's more on the fault of writers rather than in the character of Adalind. I admit that I wish we could have seen a sassy, feisty Adalind than the one shown in season 5-6, but I still ended up liking her despite her softer quality. But I think there were still glimpses of that old Adalind in season 6 episode 3, where Adalind is shown to use her quick thinking skills when she distracts Renard from opening the closet, and making him stay until the seven o'clock news came on. Even Monroe expressed admiration for her, revealing that she saved him or something along those lines. Also, when Nick, Adalind and the kids went to Monroe's house after Eve/Juliette entered the mirror world, Adalind was determined to go through the mirror to rescue Eve/Adalind and was the only one who spoke up/insisted in needing to rescue their friend. By the finale, we also see Adalind use her powers, grabbing the axe and trying to kill Z with it, only to end up getting violently killed herself. So I still think that the old Adalind is still there, maybe the writers tamed her down too much, but I think all her fierceness was redirected to protecting her children. She was determined to go against Nick for the sake of her kids, she fought off Renard's advances, and was nearly killed by Bonaparte in her efforts to protect Nick.

Quote:Gratitude, even loving someone for being kind and helpful, isn’t necessarily a basis for falling in love. The way it was presented on the show, Adalind was obsessed with maintaining the life she’d established with Nick. She was in love with the idea of being in a loving and committed relationship and being accepted into a supportive group. The reality was that Adalind was accepted by Nick’s friends because she was currently with Nick and the mother of his child. Had Nick decided to take Kelly from Adalind, his friends would have rallied around him and taken another child from Adalind. Based on S5’s characterization of Adalind, had she determined a relationship with Nick wasn’t viable, she would have likely made better use of her time with Renard and worked towards establishing an arrangement that benefited her and both children. Considering that she hated Renard for ‘giving their daughter away’ but was in denial that Nick took Diana, it was more about what she wanted and believed she could have with Nick than Renard giving their daughter away. The S3 & S4 Adalind didn’t put anyone ahead of her children, not even the central character.

I thought Adalind may have felt a sense of gratitude to Nick at the beginning of their relationship, but I don't think that it was the basis of her wanting to stay with Nick in the end. Besides the fact that Nick was kind to her, they seemed to have a similar lonely upbringing, shared the same sense of humour, and Adalind became comfortable enough to challenge/express her displeasure about certain things that Nick did without being judged for it by Nick. This was none more apparent than in the episode where Nick goes down the tunnel to try to open the door, and Adalind is helping him to turn on a torch. You see the same old sassy Adalind of previous episodes in that scene. And Nick seems to enjoy his banter with her. Also, most importantly, Adalind didn't remain a helpless mouse for long. She may have lost her powers at the beginning of season 5, but midway, not only did she gain her powers back but also was offered a job in her old law firm. Adalind was a lawyer, so she would have ended up earning more money than Nick, she really didn't need to stay with him at all. Nick already told her that he would never take Kelly away from her, after having experienced the loss of his mother. His friends would still have been friendly towards her, especially because she was raising Nick's son. Now once again, I'm not saying that the writing was perfect, obviously there were gaps/flaws, and the show runners could probably have done things a lot better than what we got. However, I never thought Adalind became a completely different character from previous seasons. Yes, she was softer, kinder than before, but she never ever put Nick ahead of her children. The Adalind of season 3 and 4 is still there. We see this at the end of season 5 because she was willing to leave Nick, in her efforts to protect Kelly and also her desire to reunite with her daughter Diana. She may have wanted to protect Nick as well, but he wasn't her priority. Even in season 6, Adalind ends up sort of arguing with Nick when she insisted that he tell Renard about the writing on the cloth in her efforts to find a way to protect Diana. And her dying words to Nick weren't a declaration of love to him, rather she asked him to protect her children. So to me, Adalind's main priority were always her children, Nick came a close second.

Quote:There are many reasons Nick & Adalind would naturally click. Nick/Adalind could have been equally complicated, compelling, and entertaining. But it wasn’t. It was contrived, manipulated, and sidestepped for the sake of easy storytelling, cool action scenes, woe is me drama, and awesome reveals that fell flat. It was in essence a plot twist that forced the characters and their alliance/relationship to devolve and become stagnant. There was a smorgasbord of history to make the headstrong Grimm and feisty Hexenbiest the most interesting and formidable alliance on the show. Instead, Adalind was relegated to Juliette 2.0, the version of Juliette Nick wished he’d had, the one who accepted his Grimm life without wanting to be involved and needed him to be her knight in shining armor. Nick continued to pound his fists against the wind, never strategizing, never identifying who his enemy actually was while Renard continued to lead him by the nose until reality smacked him in the face.

And as a result, Nick and Adalind actually becoming a couple and Nick's long awaited 'I love you' fell as flat as the rest.

I know you may not have been satisfied in how the relationship between Nick and Adalind was depicted, and I respect that. There were certain things the writers could have done better, maybe their views on women and relationships were based on adolescent fantasies, or typical male desires rather than an actual realistic example of a relationship. For myself, despite some things that I found lacking (again Nick should have been a lot more vocal about his feelings for Adalind sooner) I was overall satisfied with the way things played out. I don't think Adalind became the Juliette that Nick wanted all along, she still had that sassy quality to her and protective mother instincts that Juliette lacked. Even her scheming personality was still there, though maybe not so apparent, when she convinced Renard to take a shower and to stay a bit longer in order to talk about Diana. I think the character Nick was always meant to be written almost as an old fashioned throw back to the chivalrous knights of old, the kind who fought with their fists or swords in order to defend/protect their lady's honour, due to the fairytale background of the show.

(09-03-2017, 07:05 AM)dicappatore Wrote: IMO, the “Stockholm Syndrome” is so far off base, is like someone scoring a soccer goal at a baseball game. Adalind was not kidnapped nor held against her will. I don’t know who brought up that subject, but let’s be real. Where was the “Brainwashing” and forced to live as a captive with Nick that took place in Adalind’s life?

If there ever was a reason for that term to be used, it should be used when Adalind was forced to move in with Renard by Bonaparte, with both kids. But even in this situation, as close as it would come, to be with someone you were forced to be with. Adalind never took on with BC and Renard.