(05-18-2015, 03:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: But Tokens, couldn't you just as easily look at the other side of the coin and find where Nick was also at fault?

(05-18-2015, 03:17 PM)irukandji Wrote: I don't agree, Belle. I saw how he looked at her when she was a hexenbiest. That was the coldest, most ruthless thing I have ever seen Nick do. If he loved her as much as you claim, he would have looked past the hexenbiest to find that true love. It was over for them long ago. I think both of them tried to hold on, but from my view, that's worse than just breaking it off cleanly.

(05-18-2015, 03:17 PM)irukandji Wrote: I don't agree, Belle. I saw how he looked at her when she was a hexenbiest. That was the coldest, most ruthless thing I have ever seen Nick do. If he loved her as much as you claim, he would have looked past the hexenbiest to find that true love. It was over for them long ago. I think both of them tried to hold on, but from my view, that's worse than just breaking it off cleanly.

(05-18-2015, 04:22 PM)Belle Wrote:

(05-18-2015, 03:17 PM)irukandji Wrote: I don't agree, Belle. I saw how he looked at her when she was a hexenbiest. That was the coldest, most ruthless thing I have ever seen Nick do. If he loved her as much as you claim, he would have looked past the hexenbiest to find that true love. It was over for them long ago. I think both of them tried to hold on, but from my view, that's worse than just breaking it off cleanly.

See, I guess it depends on how you see things. I do remember Nick struggling to look at Juliette when she revealed she had become a hexenbeast. However, I don't remember disgust so much as shock and bewilderment. Nick made it clear he wanted to work on their relationship, despite this Juliette just blew him off and walked away. Considering he's a Grimm, I thought the fact that he wanted to find a way to be with her even after she went all hexenbeast reflected really well on him and the fact that she wanted him to accept embrace it immediately with no questions asked was unfair.
I just can't remember many moments where I felt like Juliette showed she even liked Nick all that much. Funny side note, when Juliette first met Monroe I thought it looked like they had a spark. For a long time I wanted them to become a couple, but I guess the makers of the show were simply trying to communicate that she sensed something about Monroe was different. Regardless, Juliette always seems indifferent if not cold toward Nick.

(05-18-2015, 04:02 PM)Tokens210 Wrote:

(05-18-2015, 03:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: But Tokens, couldn't you just as easily look at the other side of the coin and find where Nick was also at fault?

I've actually tried, as Belle mentions and i agree with nick is typically up front with her on most things, things he's not upfront with are things he sees as small or case related, he cant or shouldn't discuss all his open cases with her she has to know that by now, yea he got kissed by a stripper but he was investigating a crime and didn't know that was just gonna happen.

(05-18-2015, 06:47 PM)irukandji Wrote: Just to find out if there was a side where Nick would be at fault in this, I re-read about the last 10 pages of this thread. There were a few passages where Nick was not upfront with Juliette. Not all were small or case related things, Token.

I'm not real good at remembering details, I generally just enjoy the show. However, I do recall that Nick did not immediately reveal that he was a Grimm to Juliette. You see him as a totally loving person, willing to stand aside for Juliette. Yet you don't see any problem with him withholding from the person closest to him this great change in him? I do, and it was always a weird plothole to me. There was nothing in Juliette's character to make anyone think she would have been skeptical, she was generally supportive of Nick. Plus, Nick has all of the evidence in posession to prove it.

I highly recommend reading the pages in this thread to get a positive view of Juliette's character as well as some surprising things about Nick's character. From my point of view, I saw never saw Nick as this 24/7 tender loving person, always putting Juliette's needs above his own. Nor did I see Juliette in the same light. To me they seemed more friends than lovers. What I did see were more stories that seemed to distance the two of them. Too bad really. I agree with one of the earlier posts in this thread that pondered the question of why Juliette wasn't admitted to the 'Scooby group'. As a professional and a scientist, her input would have been extremely valuable and useful to Nick.

Belle: I went through the thread looking for evidence that Juliette strung poor absolutely devoted to the max Nick along. There is nothing I saw to support your statement. I also want to add, I watch the show and am a devoted fan. I never saw any evidence that she was deliberately using Nick.

I know your issue is with the marriage proposal that Juliette refused, and frankly, I'm confused as to why that makes her an evil person. I'll have to watch that episode again because I seem to remember thinking that Juliette's refusal was not out of line. She and Nick hadn't brought their differences out into the open to work them out and their relationship was strained. I can remember Juliette wasn't comfortable with the proposal. Note I say she was not comfortable, not she was deliberately refusing in order to make Nick suffer. There's a great difference. She showed great maturity in refusing. You yourself must know of people who *you know* weren't meant for one another. Yet they decided to get married anyway without thinking things through, only to have it blow up on them a short time later.

There were a number of things that troubled me about Nick's response to Juliette asking him to kiss her after she woged. Nick should not have "had" to struggle to look at her if he loved her the way you say. This isn't the first hexenbiest Nick's ever laid eyes on so that's no excuse. He's fought with, lusted after, and killed many different species of Wesen so that's no excuse either.

Finally, and so very important; this is the woman who risked her life to give him his Grimm powers back. She's been made into something she didn't ask for, and she's looking to him for help. What does he do? Look at her with love and kiss her to prove he still loves her? No, he makes it very apparent he repulsed by her, 'struggling' to look at her. That was absolutely the worst thing I have ever seen Nick do. It was cold, ruthless, and remorseless. In two words, it was 'totally evil'.

I can totally understand why Juliette didn't want his help after that. She's been deeply hurt by him. I imagine she was mentally comparing herself to Adalind. Nick had no trouble bedding that scheming and betraying wench, but he has trouble kissing the woman who has stood by him the whole time.

I'm not saying she's perfect, and as I said I didn't care for her character. But, I think with some better writing behind her, I would have liked her very much. As it stands, I like her a lot now and I hope she's back for season 5.

(05-18-2015, 06:47 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(05-18-2015, 04:02 PM)Tokens210 Wrote:

(05-18-2015, 03:07 PM)irukandji Wrote: But Tokens, couldn't you just as easily look at the other side of the coin and find where Nick was also at fault?

I've actually tried, as Belle mentions and i agree with nick is typically up front with her on most things, things he's not upfront with are things he sees as small or case related, he cant or shouldn't discuss all his open cases with her she has to know that by now, yea he got kissed by a stripper but he was investigating a crime and didn't know that was just gonna happen.

Just to find out if there was a side where Nick would be at fault in this, I re-read about the last 10 pages of this thread. There were a few passages where Nick was not upfront with Juliette. Not all were small or case related things, Token.

I'm not real good at remembering details, I generally just enjoy the show. However, I do recall that Nick did not immediately reveal that he was a Grimm to Juliette. You see him as a totally loving person, willing to stand aside for Juliette. Yet you don't see any problem with him withholding from the person closest to him this great change in him? I do, and it was always a weird plothole to me. There was nothing in Juliette's character to make anyone think she would have been skeptical, she was generally supportive of Nick. Plus, Nick has all of the evidence in posession to prove it.

I highly recommend reading the pages in this thread to get a positive view of Juliette's character as well as some surprising things about Nick's character. From my point of view, I saw never saw Nick as this 24/7 tender loving person, always putting Juliette's needs above his own. Nor did I see Juliette in the same light. To me they seemed more friends than lovers. What I did see were more stories that seemed to distance the two of them. Too bad really. I agree with one of the earlier posts in this thread that pondered the question of why Juliette wasn't admitted to the 'Scooby group'. As a professional and a scientist, her input would have been extremely valuable and useful to Nick.

Belle: I went through the thread looking for evidence that Juliette strung poor absolutely devoted to the max Nick along. There is nothing I saw to support your statement. I also want to add, I watch the show and am a devoted fan. I never saw any evidence that she was deliberately using Nick.

I know your issue is with the marriage proposal that Juliette refused, and frankly, I'm confused as to why that makes her an evil person. I'll have to watch that episode again because I seem to remember thinking that Juliette's refusal was not out of line. She and Nick hadn't brought their differences out into the open to work them out and their relationship was strained. I can remember Juliette wasn't comfortable with the proposal. Note I say she was not comfortable, not she was deliberately refusing in order to make Nick suffer. There's a great difference. She showed great maturity in refusing. You yourself must know of people who *you know* weren't meant for one another. Yet they decided to get married anyway without thinking things through, only to have it blow up on them a short time later.

There were a number of things that troubled me about Nick's response to Juliette asking him to kiss her after she woged. Nick should not have "had" to struggle to look at her if he loved her the way you say. This isn't the first hexenbiest Nick's ever laid eyes on so that's no excuse. He's fought with, lusted after, and killed many different species of Wesen so that's no excuse either.

Finally, and so very important; this is the woman who risked her life to give him his Grimm powers back. She's been made into something she didn't ask for, and she's looking to him for help. What does he do? Look at her with love and kiss her to prove he still loves her? No, he makes it very apparent he repulsed by her, 'struggling' to look at her. That was absolutely the worst thing I have ever seen Nick do. It was cold, ruthless, and remorseless. In two words, it was 'totally evil'.

I can totally understand why Juliette didn't want his help after that. She's been deeply hurt by him. I imagine she was mentally comparing herself to Adalind. Nick had no trouble bedding that scheming and betraying wench, but he has trouble kissing the woman who has stood by him the whole time.

I'm not saying she's perfect, and as I said I didn't care for her character. But, I think with some better writing behind her, I would have liked her very much. As it stands, I like her a lot now and I hope she's back for season 5.

(05-18-2015, 07:22 PM)Tokens210 Wrote: But Nick tries to tell Juliette about his power atleast twice before he actually does, he reason for the delay was how does he tell her, which you cant really blame him for, his literally about to say the boogieman is real you can't expect anyone even if they love you to just believe it
even when he brought her to the trailer and showed her all the evidence she believed he was crazy and ran from him saying he needed to get help.

he also realized that he would need someone like Monroe to show her it's real but he needed to make sure that was ok with Monroe first cause that's a big deal for them, something he actually didn't really do when he asked them to show Hank and WU.

(05-18-2015, 07:22 PM)Tokens210 Wrote: I actually blame Juliette not being part of the "Scooby Gang" on poor writing for her character, i personally feel if they would have included her as a member of the group instead of a person we only see at the house or when she gets in some form of trouble, i believe if she was actually brought into the gang many people wouldn't hate her character as much as they do cause it would have had more room to grow and grow closer with Nick.

(05-18-2015, 07:22 PM)Tokens210 Wrote: It's not that Juliette's rejection was evil, she had a reason the first time in she sensed he had something he wasn't telling her which was true as he was in the process of figuring out how to tell her monsters are real, he sees them, and his job is to kill the bad ones
He then Proposed again with no words right before the wedding and her answer then was 1 wedding is enough for now

He tried Proposing a 3rd time and was stopped due to his mother showing up i believe, Juliette had to know he was asking tho cause he stated that he knows she said 1 wedding was enough and its not the right time but that it never will be its gotta be a spur type thing, then he even straight told her he was asking her later and i don't think she even responded

Not saying any of the above makes her evil, but you can only ask a girl so many times before you gotta face it just isn't gonna happen lol..

(05-18-2015, 07:22 PM)Tokens210 Wrote: I agree again about Nick taking her first Woge probably the absolute worst way possible lol and i also believe if he kissed her things might not have gone so wrong but nick actually thought it was Adalind or another hexenbeast, he even drew his weapon and shouted your not juliette

also it isn't the first Hexenbeast nick's seen but Adalind's Hexenbeast was the first Wesen nick ever saw and he thought he was going crazy till his aunt showed up, so he may feel some kinda way when he sees them still like how Wu still remembers the aswang and is still a bit freaked even tho he now knows, and how Hank still seems to flashback to the siegbarste about to kill him

Hexenbeasts also seem to posses enough power to easily swag grimm to do whatever they want as shown at an earlier point by Adalind, then again by Henrietta, so there pretty decent opponents for a grimm so if nick didnt believe it was juliette then he actually truly felt in danger in that moment atleast

Juliette made the choice to give nick his grimm powers back, he was ready to give it all up although he told hank he kinda didnt want to but he still would

i also agree with after he did know it was juliette and a hexenbeast i dont get why he wouldn't look at her, when he has seen them before and now knows its actually Juliette my hopes here is he's not looking at her cause he blames himself entirely(which i can only imagine is heavy) for her being a hexenbeast(even tho its actually Adalind to directly blame and both him and juliette a bit since they accepted taking the potion without knowing what may happen) and the beautiful love of his life now has the dead body looking side to her grinding her teeth and such and none of it ever would have happened if he had left her like his aunt told him to (he actually says this to hank i believe somepoint, that his aunt said to leave her and if he did Adalind would never have been able to get to her, or would have had no reason to)

all and all i think many people would have actually liked Juliette more if her role was written a bit better and they actually involved her in the group more

Quote:(even tho its actually Adalind to directly blame and both him and juliette a bit since they accepted taking the potion without knowing what may happen)

(05-18-2015, 08:53 PM)irukandji Wrote: 1. I can't remember if this happened or not, but did he bring Hank over to talk to Juliette? In all honesty, I don't know the best way to tell her about it. It just seemed strange to me that he took a while to confide in her.


2. Can you recall if Nick ever tried to get to the heart of why Juliette refused him? As I said in my previous post, I didn't think the first proposal was made under the best of circumstances and their relationship was obviously strained. It seems like if Nick ignored that and then proposed again, Juliette would still refuse. Of course, it's not all Nick's fault either. Juliette could have brought out her reasons rather than simply stating one wedding's enough.


Tokens, some of my above post was directed to Belle. Sorry about that, I didn't expect you to have to respond again. That aside, you brought up something very interesting that caught my eye. Here's the snippet:

Quote:(even tho its actually Adalind to directly blame and both him and juliette a bit since they accepted taking the potion without knowing what may happen)

3. This is actually a very good point. Do you have any thoughts on what they might have done rather than take the potion?

(05-18-2015, 03:17 PM)irukandji Wrote: I don't agree, Belle. I saw how he looked at her when she was a hexenbiest. That was the coldest, most ruthless thing I have ever seen Nick do. If he loved her as much as you claim, he would have looked past the hexenbiest to find that true love. It was over for them long ago. I think both of them tried to hold on, but from my view, that's worse than just breaking it off cleanly.