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+---- Thread: What I would like to have seen at the END (/Thread-What-I-would-like-to-have-seen-at-the-END)
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - irukandji - 12-04-2017
(12-04-2017, 04:33 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Saying intelligent things to nincanpoops, is a waste of time![/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8uY79zQeak
How would you know? You've never said anything intelligent. It's all blubbery brag about yourself.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - Robyn - 01-06-2018
(12-04-2017, 06:17 AM)irukandji Wrote: As Robyn said, Renard's plan for Nick was to keep him in his back pocket. Well, that doesn't imply a strong and independent character. The truth of what I saw is that Nick *liked* it in Renard's back pocket. He was content with the whole corrupt situation and did nothing about it. The closest I could come was calling him a lackey because as long as he remained in Renard's back pocket, he also was willing to come out and do what Renard wanted, should Renard want it done. That didn't happen, but neither did a change of character in Nick either.
Nick was content. He could do what he wanted as long as he remained in the boss's back pocket. And so he did. That's the best I can put it.
This makes me wonder about Nick’s understanding of his working and personal relationship with Renard. He readily accepted Renard’s explanation and alliance offer in S1, but at that time he was a novice Grimm and probably felt like he was in over his head. I don’t recall Nick confronting Renard about ‘curing’ Juliette of the coma spell without discussing it with him first. Nick was against taking Diana from Renard by force, and insisted Kelly not kill him.
Nick had zero concern for Adalind, but he hated her and viewed her only as a dangerous enemy. So what did Nick consider Renard to be? Was there genuine camaraderie or was Nick concerned with losing Renard as a captain who would cover up his Grimm activities?
Why did Nick maneuver Renard back into his captain chair in S6? Why not maneuver him out of Portland instead? Wanted to keep an eye on him or wanted to keep a captain who would cover up his Grimm activities?
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - rpmaluki - 01-06-2018
I'd say both, as the saying goes keep your friends close and all that and it also benefitted him to have a captain that wouldn't dig too close into Nick's reports and question the holes scattered all over.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - Robyn - 01-06-2018
I assume you’re referring to Nick putting Renard back into the captain’s chair in S6. What about S3, did Nick trust Renard and not want to take Diana by force from a friend/fellow cop or was he concerned with keeping an ally in the captain’s chair? I guess I’m wondering if Nick and Renard were simultaneously using each other. If so, I’d gain a respect for Nick being more insightful than previously thought.
Nick told Adalind in S5 that he didn’t trust Renard ‘all the time’. I’m wondering if he was being totally honest with himself about his working relationship with Renard. I never saw indication Nick & Renard had a friendship outside the work environment, but I didn’t get the impression that he was cautious with Renard prior to the BC hoopla - other than the stick, but then, Nick only trusted the immediate group with the stick.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - rpmaluki - 01-06-2018
Nick certainly trusted Renard in S3 and treated him as an ally. He hated Adalind, I think it was more for what she did to Juliette (and Hank) than what Adalind had done to him.
In S3, I don't see Nick "using" Renard as Sean uses people but I know it couldn't be lost on Nick to have an ally for a captain who wasn't against Nick's extra curricula activities in closing cases. I'd say the relationship appeared symbiotic but with Renard on a stronger position and Nick almost, not completely, subservient. He was still independent as a Grimm.
In S6, the tables have turned, Nick is the one on top. On the surface, everything is like before but the relationship is much more broken due to Renard's S5 mistakes allowing Nick to see him for the snake he is. Nick is now the one in control. Renard may be Captain but that's largely because Nick orchestrated it, Nick isn't subservient at all.
They certainly weren't friends but I think Nick was influenced by Renard's supposed change of heart when he returned the key and the waking of Juliette from her coma. Renard capitalised on Nick's hatred for Adalind to set himself up on a better standing in Nick's eyes and didn't appear to go back on whatever truce they called. BC just exposed Renard as the same person Nick once went into the woods to fight. As a newly minted Grimm he was naive to believe Renard was truly changed and that they were on the same side (the extent of the trust he gave Renard), in S6, that false veneer is stripped completely away and Nick can't ignore the truth of Renard's real character.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - irukandji - 01-06-2018
(01-06-2018, 08:02 AM)Robyn Wrote: Why did Nick maneuver Renard back into his captain chair in S6? Why not maneuver him out of Portland instead? Wanted to keep an eye on him or wanted to keep a captain who would cover up his Grimm activities?
You hit it right on the head, Robyn. It's door number two, he wanted to keep a captain who would cover up his grimm activities. Renard and Nick were at a standoff in S6. They wanted their old lives back and so they compromised.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - Robyn - 01-06-2018
(01-06-2018, 08:58 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: They certainly weren't friends but I think Nick was influenced by Renard's supposed change of heart when he returned the key and the waking of Juliette from her coma. Renard capitalised on Nick's hatred for Adalind to set himself up on a better standing in Nick's eyes and didn't appear to go back on whatever truce they called. BC just exposed Renard as the same person Nick once went into the woods to fight. As a newly minted Grimm he was naive to believe Renard was truly changed and that they were on the same side (the extent of the trust he gave Renard), in S6, that false veneer is stripped completely away and Nick can't ignore the truth of Renard's real character.I think one of the reasons Nick appeared more angry with Juliette and Renard than Adalind is that he didn’t have any expectations with Adalind compared to Juliette and to a lesser extent Renard.
Viewers knew why Adalind took Nick’s Grimm, but he automatically chalked it up to revenge because that’s what he’d expect from her. Even as a Hexenbiest, Nick didn’t fathom Juliette capable of consorting with his enemies, much less being caught up in his mother’s death.
And this leads me to another puzzler - Both Juliette and Adalind feared Nick would kill them because they were Hexenbiest. It’s less strange with Adalind considering their history and that their relationship was more awkward after she confessed her feelings. So I can see why she’d fear the Hexenbiest’s return would sway Nick to end their agreement to raise Kelly together, but not that he'd immediately kill her.
But where did Juliette’s fear/suspicion come from? I never got the impression Juliette thought Nick was generally too quick to kill Wesen. He didn’t have any adverse reaction to Elizabeth or Henrietta. And despite their volatile past, Nick never actively pursued killing Adalind. If that’s what he wanted, kidnapping Diana would have been the perfect opportunity. I can’t imagine Kelly or Renard going against the idea.
So why was that even a concern for Juliette? And why didn’t Nick question why both women automatically assumed he’d kill them or bother to address it with either of them?
(01-06-2018, 09:43 AM)irukandji Wrote: You hit it right on the head, Robyn. It's door number two, he wanted to keep a captain who would cover up his grimm activities. Renard and Nick were at a standoff in S6. They wanted their old lives back and so they compromised.Yes, I think they both wanted to resume the status quo at that point.
But I think the show missed a great opportunity in S6 to explore a winner take all Nick/Renard battle. Because my opinion is the same, Renard going down for the count and staying down is too out of character to be believable. He would have at some point turned his loss into a viable win. Whether restarting a BC cell in Portland or banding together Wesen still loyal to BC’s ideology under his leadership, Renard would have done something to prevent Nick from permanently taking away everything he’d worked to achieve in S5.
The S6 promo mentioned Grimm returning to where it started. To me Renard was Nick’s first adversary as a Grimm. His first Wesen case might have been a Blutbad, but Renard was his first challenger, and I think a final series showdown between the two could have been interesting.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-07-2018
The problem with a showdown is that Nick and Renard were no longer in a bubble of secrecy. HW in Portland was destroyed, but its "home office" was still intact, and they knew about Renard.
The real mystery in my mind about S06 is why Renard wasn't in a cell in Gitmo by episode four.
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - dicappatore - 01-07-2018
Renard was kept around because he is one of the primary supporting cast of the series from day one. Taking him out of the loop would be like taking out Adalind, Monroe, Hank ect.. They took out Juliette for what? a few episodes and we all saw what happens to the primary supporting cast, they never go away.
All this talk about insight and how he played Nick is way over the top. Last time I looked, the show was called, GRIMM, not "How to use a Grimm" or "Captain Renard" or "Half a Zouberbiest". All this who used who, who was the live in father of Diana and Kelly as fantasized by some on other threads is hog wash.
I get it, some of you guys don't like nick, but to turn 6 seasons or even just a few episodes not about the main character and his accomplishments is ridiculous. This whole series is about Nick, the center of the Grimm universe and Sean was one of its satellites. Capisce?
RE: What I would like to have seen at the END - irukandji - 01-07-2018
(01-07-2018, 09:11 AM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: The problem with a showdown is that Nick and Renard were no longer in a bubble of secrecy. HW in Portland was destroyed, but its "home office" was still intact, and they knew about Renard.
The real mystery in my mind about S06 is why Renard wasn't in a cell in Gitmo by episode four.
Because this is grimm, the series was winding down, and a ridiculous storyline will work.