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+--- Thread: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt (/Thread-Nicholas-Nick-Burkhardt)
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - syscrash - 12-31-2016
She could have even told her mother. Even this time her mother was against disfiguring her. But that still does not change the issue of not being responsible.
She told the guys no and to go away. they insisted on rejecting her wishes. Just like the guy in the bar. Juliette was walking out the door. The guy is the one who insisted on making her do what he wanted. Why could he not take no for an answer. The guy on the bike could not take no for and answer. The guy in the bike show could not take no for an answer. I am a guy and it bugs me when someone is not willing to take no for an answer.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 01-01-2017
(12-31-2016, 10:38 AM)syscrash Wrote: She could have even told her mother. Even this time her mother was against disfiguring her. But that still does not change the issue of not being responsible.
She told the guys no and to go away. they insisted on rejecting her wishes. Just like the guy in the bar. Juliette was walking out the door. The guy is the one who insisted on making her do what he wanted. Why could he not take no for an answer. The guy on the bike could not take no for and answer. The guy in the bike show could not take no for an answer. I am a guy and it bugs me when someone is not willing to take no for an answer.
As I said before, the issue I have with the whole episode is that it's geared for one thing and one thing only, and that is to make Nick look good. In order to make him look good, the episode is completely contrived, from the beginning where these poisonous skinned women are so beautiful men can't resist them so they mutilate themselves, to the end where this girl's poison is eliminated, but she's mutilated anyway, and likes it.
What I would have liked to have seen was a different type of ending. In other words, Nick is faced with an ethical and moral dilemma. For instance, he lets the girl go, she doesn't get the tattoo, and a few days later, she ends up accidentally killing a wesen child. It can't be proven of course, but the child's mother knows Nick is a Grimm and approaches him for help.
Who does Nick help? The frog girl or the wesen mother? And how does he face his conscience for letting the frog girl go in the first place?
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - jsgrimm45 - 01-01-2017
We can debate all episode with what if's, but these are alway a personal view of the characters. The frog girl is a good debate on the what ifs but the girl wanted the change no one forced her to drink the potion. The real debate would this make her happy she said it did. Could the whole point of episode have been there is someone out there for everyone. The guy she was with at the end thought she was beautiful so the episode had a happy ever after ending. Like any fairy tale.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 08:10 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: We can debate all episode with what if's, but these are alway a personal view of the characters. The frog girl is a good debate on the what ifs but the girl wanted the change no one forced her to drink the potion. The real debate would this make her happy she said it did. Could the whole point of episode have been there is someone out there for everyone. The guy she was with at the end thought she was beautiful so the episode had a happy ever after ending. Like any fairy tale.
The only problem with the happy ending scenario is that it is not a happy ending for at least two people, who ended up dead. What I am saying is that the episode was contrived from the minute it aired until its conclusion. It was designed to supposedly show "another side to Nick". In reality, it didn't show that at all. Accident or not, the frog girl killed two men. Anyone else accidentally killing two men would have to face the judge and a jury. Nick took it upon himself to see to it that the frog girl was not going down that path. Who's he to make that decision?
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - jsgrimm45 - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 09:42 AM)irukandji Wrote:We always agree to disagree because of how we each view the series. Not a problem I know you see it as it should hold true law and order so you are correct from you view, I see it as a fantasy as such Nick was right in doing what he did. Just different views.(01-01-2017, 08:10 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: We can debate all episode with what if's, but these are alway a personal view of the characters. The frog girl is a good debate on the what ifs but the girl wanted the change no one forced her to drink the potion. The real debate would this make her happy she said it did. Could the whole point of episode have been there is someone out there for everyone. The guy she was with at the end thought she was beautiful so the episode had a happy ever after ending. Like any fairy tale.
The only problem with the happy ending scenario is that it is not a happy ending for at least two people, who ended up dead. What I am saying is that the episode was contrived from the minute it aired until its conclusion. It was designed to supposedly show "another side to Nick". In reality, it didn't show that at all. Accident or not, the frog girl killed two men. Anyone else accidentally killing two men would have to face the judge and a jury. Nick took it upon himself to see to it that the frog girl was not going down that path. Who's he to make that decision?
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 11:54 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:(01-01-2017, 09:42 AM)irukandji Wrote:We always agree to disagree because of how we each view the series. Not a problem I know you see it as it should hold true law and order so you are correct from you view, I see it as a fantasy as such Nick was right in doing what he did. Just different views.(01-01-2017, 08:10 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: We can debate all episode with what if's, but these are alway a personal view of the characters. The frog girl is a good debate on the what ifs but the girl wanted the change no one forced her to drink the potion. The real debate would this make her happy she said it did. Could the whole point of episode have been there is someone out there for everyone. The guy she was with at the end thought she was beautiful so the episode had a happy ever after ending. Like any fairy tale.
The only problem with the happy ending scenario is that it is not a happy ending for at least two people, who ended up dead. What I am saying is that the episode was contrived from the minute it aired until its conclusion. It was designed to supposedly show "another side to Nick". In reality, it didn't show that at all. Accident or not, the frog girl killed two men. Anyone else accidentally killing two men would have to face the judge and a jury. Nick took it upon himself to see to it that the frog girl was not going down that path. Who's he to make that decision?
Well, even fantasies have their rules. For instance, we know it is wrong to kill in Grimm, the series has made that very plain. So it's safe to assume there is some kind of law in force.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - New Guy - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 09:42 AM)irukandji Wrote:Hi JS and Iruk,(01-01-2017, 08:10 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: We can debate all episode with what if's, but these are alway a personal view of the characters. The frog girl is a good debate on the what ifs but the girl wanted the change no one forced her to drink the potion. The real debate would this make her happy she said it did. Could the whole point of episode have been there is someone out there for everyone. The guy she was with at the end thought she was beautiful so the episode had a happy ever after ending. Like any fairy tale.
The only problem with the happy ending scenario is that it is not a happy ending for at least two people, who ended up dead. What I am saying is that the episode was contrived from the minute it aired until its conclusion. It was designed to supposedly show "another side to Nick". In reality, it didn't show that at all. Accident or not, the frog girl killed two men. Anyone else accidentally killing two men would have to face the judge and a jury. Nick took it upon himself to see to it that the frog girl was not going down that path. Who's he to make that decision?
I am in agreement with JS for this one. The Grimm Brothers wrote Fairy Tales. They included a lot of violence:
http://www.history.com/news/the-dark-side-of-the-grimm-fairy-tales
The above article provides examples of Grimm's tales with themes that include "Premarital sex, Graphic violence, Child abuse, Anti-Semitism, Incest, and Wicked mothers." IMO, the frog girl's deadly touch is consistent with the writings of the Brothers Grimm. The two guys that wouldn't heed her warnings met a "grimm" end (hideous death).
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RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - jsgrimm45 - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 12:55 PM)irukandji Wrote:IMO laws in fantasy are want the writers want them to be at the time for the story needs. to get to the end point they want to tell. @New Guy link shows the Grimm tales were harsh and not PG rated.(01-01-2017, 11:54 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:(01-01-2017, 09:42 AM)irukandji Wrote:We always agree to disagree because of how we each view the series. Not a problem I know you see it as it should hold true law and order so you are correct from you view, I see it as a fantasy as such Nick was right in doing what he did. Just different views.(01-01-2017, 08:10 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: We can debate all episode with what if's, but these are alway a personal view of the characters. The frog girl is a good debate on the what ifs but the girl wanted the change no one forced her to drink the potion. The real debate would this make her happy she said it did. Could the whole point of episode have been there is someone out there for everyone. The guy she was with at the end thought she was beautiful so the episode had a happy ever after ending. Like any fairy tale.
The only problem with the happy ending scenario is that it is not a happy ending for at least two people, who ended up dead. What I am saying is that the episode was contrived from the minute it aired until its conclusion. It was designed to supposedly show "another side to Nick". In reality, it didn't show that at all. Accident or not, the frog girl killed two men. Anyone else accidentally killing two men would have to face the judge and a jury. Nick took it upon himself to see to it that the frog girl was not going down that path. Who's he to make that decision?
Well, even fantasies have their rules. For instance, we know it is wrong to kill in Grimm, the series has made that very plain. So it's safe to assume there is some kind of law in force.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 04:52 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: IMO laws in fantasy are want the writers want them to be at the time for the story needs. to get to the end point they want to tell. @New Guy link shows the Grimm tales were harsh and not PG rated.
I'll quote New Guy's post here:
Quote:The above article provides examples of Grimm's tales with themes that include "Premarital sex, Graphic violence, Child abuse, Anti-Semitism, Incest, and Wicked mothers." IMO, the frog girl's deadly touch is consistent with the writings of the Brothers Grimm. The two guys that wouldn't heed her warnings met a "grimm" end (hideous death).
So in your opinion, "laws in fantasy are want the writers want them to be at the time for the story needs."
New Guy lists as occurrences in Grimm's fairy tales are premarital sex, graphic violence, child abuse, Anti-Semitism, Incest and Wicked mothers.
How can you agree with New Guy then? These are fantasy stories. there is no premarital sex because that kind of thing doesn't exist in the world of Grimm's fairy tales. It's the same with child abuse, Anti-Semitism, and the rest. You can't even say graphic violence exists because how do you define graphic violence in a fairy tale setting? It's not defined and all you can compare it to is what we consider as graphic violence and the here and now, not in some Grimm fairytale.
I'll leave in wicked mothers because I do believe the Grimm brothers did often depict mothers as wicked.
As for the frog girl, in my opinion, there are laws in the Grimm series against murder. You can call it a fantasy, but the writers set up the parameters to show that murder is a crime. If it wasn't they wouldn't be sending Nick out to investigate the case for foul play. The girl ran away from her crime, which shows she's fully aware of what murder is and the penalty. Nick, as a cop, can arrest her for her crimes. He chose not to. I can go on and on, but this doesn't sound like a fantasy where no rules apply and anything's fair game. However, we view it the way we view it. I cannot change your definition of fantasy anymore than you can change mine. I can only point out that we can't use common terms to fairy tales where those terms do not apply.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - FaceInTheCrowd - 01-01-2017
(01-01-2017, 04:52 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: IMO laws in fantasy are want the writers want them to be at the time for the story needs.
This is true of most Drama. The vast majority of arrests made in TV cop shows and movies would probably be thrown out before they ever made it to a trial.