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+--- Thread: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt (/Thread-Nicholas-Nick-Burkhardt)
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - Robyn - 12-26-2016
(12-26-2016, 09:41 AM)irukandji Wrote:(12-25-2016, 04:10 PM)Robyn Wrote:Quote:Syscrash wrote:
You can not sight one example of Nick showing sociopathic tendencies. You can not be a sociopath and have a group of friend that are willing to die for you.Quote:You're kidding, right? Jim Jones had a number of friends. Some of them took the koolaid right along with him. And if they didn't, he forced them to.
Irukandji wrote:
Sociopaths can be charming, charismatic and enigmatic. But let's put it this way. Can you cite a time when Nick stated these were his friends? I can't so I am asking. Can you cite a time where any of them stated they were willing to die for him? I know they went off on a few adventures where death could have occurred, but I don't consider that the same as offering their lives for his.
Jim Jones is an excellent example. Jones’ followers were dedicated to what they believed he represented. Which isn’t that different than Nick’s ‘friends’. I have always thought these characters behaved more like cult members than friends rallying for a common cause, and haven’t seen anything that makes me believe they would be so actively involved with Nick if he wasn’t a Grimm. It’s not Nick they’re drawn to, it’s the Grimm and wanting to be a part of the Grimm world that compels them to be loyal servants.
We have Nick the sociopath and Eve and Adalind, the hexenbiests. In terms of manipulation, how do you think Nick uses his sociopathic tendencies to manipulate Adalind? How did she use her hexenbiest attributes to manipulate him?
(12-26-2016, 09:41 AM)irukandji Wrote: We have Nick the sociopath and Eve and Adalind, the hexenbiests. In terms of manipulation, how do you think Nick uses his sociopathic tendencies to manipulate Adalind? How did she use her hexenbiest attributes to manipulate him?I don’t know that Adalind has ever used her Hexenbiest attributes to manipulate anyone, at lease not successfully. I don’t recall any example of Adalind capable of manipulating any man in the way Henrietta showed Nick.
She couldn’t manipulate Hank without a spell. She used a spell to manipulate Renard in order to conceive Diana. When she took Nick’s Grimm, I think she ramped up his enthusiastic participation by giving him a fantastic roll in the sack. At the precinct, Adalind was counting on Nick’s paternal instincts kicking in and having a greater positive effect than her as the mother would be a negative effect. Some think Adalind was manipulating Nick in S5, I don’t, but let’s say she was. Adalind didn’t appeal to Nick as a man - come to my bed, I want to feel you close to me - but rather, to Nick as a protector - I’m afraid, sleep in our room.
I think Adalind is manipulating herself into believing she loves Nick, he might could love her, and they could have a real relationship. And Nick is using that to his advantage. Adalind took sex off the table during their conversation after Juliette’s return. Then Nick is going to Germany and Adalind doesn’t suddenly just want sex, she’s professing to love him. Nick could have prevented anything from happening, but he didn’t. No attempt to discuss the pitfalls of moving too quickly or for the wrong reasons. And while Nick knew he didn’t know what he felt for Adalind, if anything, he continued to have sex with her whenever she initiated it. Nick was pacifying Adalind to keep things calm at home, make things easier for him. There wasn’t any reason for him to have sex with Adalind if he wasn’t into the idea, except to avoid unwanted conversations and keep the peace.
So I guess in a way Nick did use sociopath tendencies to manipulate/cajole Adalind in a way that benefited him. Much like Renard did.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - rpmaluki - 12-26-2016
I totally agree that the only person Adalind's manipulated is herself. She's convinced herself than Nick is the best thing (for her) since sliced bread and that is so so so wrong. She's never experienced anyone treat her with decency and has latched on to Nick who feigns being good because he's too lazy to be anything else in life.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - brandon - 12-26-2016
Nick is man honest and its the best found Adalind on your way. Will have made mistakes but people are like that
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - New Guy - 12-26-2016
(12-26-2016, 09:41 AM)irukandji Wrote: We have Nick the sociopath and Eve and Adalind, the hexenbiests. In terms of manipulation, how do you think Nick uses his sociopathic tendencies to manipulate Adalind? How did she use her hexenbiest attributes to manipulate him?Hi Iruk,
It is clear that you do not consider Nick to be Prince Charming, nor do I. However IMO, (non-clinical) Nick is not a "sociopath."
The Google definition of sociopath is:
Quote:a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.There are many articles about the disorder, including this:
http://www.medicaldaily.com/4-signs-sociopath-how-know-if-you-have-personality-disorder-406895
Again, IMO Nick does not have any of these four:
His ego is not in excess. He does have self esteem and confidence to face extreme situations. I have worked for and around some extreme egomaniacs and Nick is nothing like them.
You have made it clear he is not "charming." He does not manipulate others, but presents them with choices that may get them to side with him. If he was a manipulator, Hank and Wu would have asked to be removed from his cases, if they managed to stay alive. They both seem to like working with Nick.
IMO, Nick cares deeply about others. Note how other Grimms kill upon seeing a woge. Not Nick. It was his love for Juliette that made him release the strangle hold and to give up fighting. When Renard showed the surveillance video, he wanted to turn himself in and face the consequences. Compare that to FrankenEve's BS that it was Juliette, not her, who committed all the violent acts of hatred. IMO the Scoobies consider Nick a close friend and worthy of their trust.
If Nick had significant "Brushes" with the law then he would have lost his PPD badge and be doing who knows what. In one case, he asked Renard if he was being suspended, but he was not. I have read your many dissertations about how he operates outside police procedural rules, but IMO he handles Wesen crime within the Grimm procedural rules with (usually) approval by his Captain, Renard.
If there is a sociopath on the show it is Royal Prince Captain Mayor Elect Sean Renard. He is egotistical, manipulative and heartless.
N G
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - syscrash - 12-27-2016
Quote:I don’t know that Adalind has ever used her Hexenbiest attributes to manipulate anyone, at lease not successfully. I don’t recall any example of Adalind capable of manipulating any man in the way Henrietta showed NickAdalind and Juliette have manipulated Sean. In the car when Adalind took his hand to convince him to join her, he made the comment about how good she is. When Sean brought the book to the spice shop and they where talking about Juliette. He again commented about her defiantly not being the same Juliette. You could tell he was not talking about her being a hexenbiest. He brought the book to the shop right after sleeping with Juliette. Even when Juliette was seducing Sean he was resisting at first until she touched him.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - MarylikesGrimm - 12-27-2016
(12-27-2016, 01:36 AM)syscrash Wrote: Adalind and Juliette have manipulated Sean. In the car when Adalind took his hand to convince him to join her, he made the comment about how good she is.
Adalind was suggesting was right that Sean and her should work together as parents in that scene and Adalind completely failed at convincing Sean. This an example of how poorly Adalind could affected people even when she was telling the truth.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - syscrash - 12-27-2016
We know Adalind is not that good at influencing people because she could not even manipulate Hank and he had no idea what was going on. She had to use a potion on him.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - irukandji - 12-27-2016
(12-26-2016, 06:22 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Iruk,
It is clear that you do not consider Nick to be Prince Charming, nor do I. However IMO, (non-clinical) Nick is not a "sociopath."
The Google definition of sociopath is:
Quote:a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.There are many articles about the disorder, including this:
http://www.medicaldaily.com/4-signs-sociopath-how-know-if-you-have-personality-disorder-406895
Again, IMO Nick does not have any of these four:
His ego is not in excess. He does have self esteem and confidence to face extreme situations. I have worked for and around some extreme egomaniacs and Nick is nothing like them.
You have made it clear he is not "charming." He does not manipulate others, but presents them with choices that may get them to side with him. If he was a manipulator, Hank and Wu would have asked to be removed from his cases, if they managed to stay alive. They both seem to like working with Nick.
IMO, Nick cares deeply about others. Note how other Grimms kill upon seeing a woge. Not Nick. It was his love for Juliette that made him release the strangle hold and to give up fighting. When Renard showed the surveillance video, he wanted to turn himself in and face the consequences. Compare that to FrankenEve's BS that it was Juliette, not her, who committed all the violent acts of hatred. IMO the Scoobies consider Nick a close friend and worthy of their trust.
If Nick had significant "Brushes" with the law then he would have lost his PPD badge and be doing who knows what. In one case, he asked Renard if he was being suspended, but he was not. I have read your many dissertations about how he operates outside police procedural rules, but IMO he handles Wesen crime within the Grimm procedural rules with (usually) approval by his Captain, Renard.
If there is a sociopath on the show it is Royal Prince Captain Mayor Elect Sean Renard. He is egotistical, manipulative and heartless.
N GV
Hello New Guy-
Actually there are other signs of sociopaths as well. I assume that you, like me, are keeping in mind that sociopaths do not have to exhibit all of the attributes in order to be sociopaths. Here are some additional signs:
Lying and manipulative behavior-I would say that applies to Nick.
Lack of empathy. This goes along with the don't care about others in your article, so it's not an additional sign. However, it does apply to Nick. For instance, if you believe Adalind when she told Nick she loved him (on several occasions, actually), that's a statement generally put out to elicit a response. Nick has actually chosen to ignore it, rather than acknowledging he loves her in return or being honest with her and telling her he doesn't love her.
Showing lack of remorse or shame-I would say that applies to Nick.
Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations-Nick never really ever expresses fear, even in disturbing or dangerous situations.
Behaving irresponsibly or with extreme impulsivity-Definitely a Nick trademark here.
Living by the “pleasure principle-If it feels good, do it and avoid the consequences. Yes, this is Nick once again.
Showing disregard for societal norms-Nick, BIG TIME!
Having “intense” eyes. This was an unusual one, but the article I read interpreted this as maintaining uninterrupted eye contact. Failure to look away politely is perceived as aggressiveness or seductive. However, what I find interesting were the comments people made about the change in Grimm banners. In one, Nick's eyes were yellow. In another, blue. He does have intense eyes.
I'd say Nick is a sociopath, New Guy. There are probably other signs the two of us have missed.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - Robyn - 12-27-2016
(12-26-2016, 03:20 PM)rpmaluki Wrote: I totally agree that the only person Adalind's manipulated is herself. She's convinced herself than Nick is the best thing (for her) since sliced bread and that is so so so wrong. She's never experienced anyone treat her with decency and has latched on to Nick who feigns being good because he's too lazy to be anything else in life.I laughed out loud: Nick is the best thing (for her) since sliced bread and Nick who feigns being good because he's too lazy to be anything else in life
That’s a good point, rpmaluki, about Nick being lazy. But looking back at him and Juliette, Nick didn’t have to work at having a relationship with Juliette. She just muddled through all the Grimm crap and stayed for more. Juliette almost died twice before Nick finally came clean about being a Grimm. A little warning would have at least helped her to avoid allowing Adalind or Renard to get near her. And yet, Juliette takes it on the chin, and continues taking it on the chin until she becomes a Hexenbiest and Nick doesn’t want her anymore unless she’s fixed.
Juliette allowed Nick to be lazy by expecting so little of him, and Adalind is doing the same.
Nick might be lazy, and selfish, but Adalind is oftentimes downright pathetic. Nick hasn’t given her any indication that he sees her as anything more than Kelly’s mother. And yet, she ignores that she’s the only one committed to the relationship. If Nick’s reason for not killing Adalind is he won’t take Kelly’s mother from him, and Adalind still can’t buy a clue, she may never break out of her fantasy.
RE: Nicholas "Nick" Burkhardt - New Guy - 12-28-2016
(12-27-2016, 04:56 PM)irukandji Wrote:Hi Iruk,(12-26-2016, 06:22 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Iruk,
It is clear that you do not consider Nick to be Prince Charming, nor do I. However IMO, (non-clinical) Nick is not a "sociopath."
The Google definition of sociopath is:
Quote:a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.There are many articles about the disorder, including this:
http://www.medicaldaily.com/4-signs-sociopath-how-know-if-you-have-personality-disorder-406895
Again, IMO Nick does not have any of these four:
His ego is not in excess. He does have self esteem and confidence to face extreme situations. I have worked for and around some extreme egomaniacs and Nick is nothing like them.
You have made it clear he is not "charming." He does not manipulate others, but presents them with choices that may get them to side with him. If he was a manipulator, Hank and Wu would have asked to be removed from his cases, if they managed to stay alive. They both seem to like working with Nick.
IMO, Nick cares deeply about others. Note how other Grimms kill upon seeing a woge. Not Nick. It was his love for Juliette that made him release the strangle hold and to give up fighting. When Renard showed the surveillance video, he wanted to turn himself in and face the consequences. Compare that to FrankenEve's BS that it was Juliette, not her, who committed all the violent acts of hatred. IMO the Scoobies consider Nick a close friend and worthy of their trust.
If Nick had significant "Brushes" with the law then he would have lost his PPD badge and be doing who knows what. In one case, he asked Renard if he was being suspended, but he was not. I have read your many dissertations about how he operates outside police procedural rules, but IMO he handles Wesen crime within the Grimm procedural rules with (usually) approval by his Captain, Renard.
If there is a sociopath on the show it is Royal Prince Captain Mayor Elect Sean Renard. He is egotistical, manipulative and heartless.
N G
Hello New Guy-
Actually there are other signs of sociopaths as well. I assume that you, like me, are keeping in mind that sociopaths do not have to exhibit all of the attributes in order to be sociopaths. Here are some additional signs:
Lying and manipulative behavior-I would say that applies to Nick.
Lack of empathy. This goes along with the don't care about others in your article, so it's not an additional sign. However, it does apply to Nick. For instance, if you believe Adalind when she told Nick she loved him (on several occasions, actually), that's a statement generally put out to elicit a response. Nick has actually chosen to ignore it, rather than acknowledging he loves her in return or being honest with her and telling her he doesn't love her.
Showing lack of remorse or shame-I would say that applies to Nick.
Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations-Nick never really ever expresses fear, even in disturbing or dangerous situations.
Behaving irresponsibly or with extreme impulsivity-Definitely a Nick trademark here.
Living by the “pleasure principle-If it feels good, do it and avoid the consequences. Yes, this is Nick once again.
Showing disregard for societal norms-Nick, BIG TIME!
Having “intense” eyes. This was an unusual one, but the article I read interpreted this as maintaining uninterrupted eye contact. Failure to look away politely is perceived as aggressiveness or seductive. However, what I find interesting were the comments people made about the change in Grimm banners. In one, Nick's eyes were yellow. In another, blue. He does have intense eyes.
I'd say Nick is a sociopath, New Guy. There are probably other signs the two of us have missed.
I continue to disagree and see no substantive evidence to your claim Nick is a sociopath. However, you are entitled to your own opinion.
IMO, the show's real sociopath is Renard. He is the egomaniac, manipulative, self-centered creep that the writers indicate will soon be the major evil one on the show. You should enjoy it since his goal will be to kill Nick.
N G