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+--- Thread: Nick (/Thread-Nick--2315)
RE: Nick - rpmaluki - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:25 PM)irukandji Wrote:The scoobies don't have the authority on being good.(10-15-2017, 12:18 PM)Robyn Wrote: If we’re looking at what should have been, Kelly completing her mission might have made a world of difference in all their lives.
I thought there was some mishap in (South America? I can't recall where they were going) that prevented Kelly from accomplishing her mission. So the plane was redirected to Nick's. Why there I don't know, but I thought it was at Kelly's direction. Why she was following orders to begin with and then diverted course without checking with the person or persons unknown directing this mission is beyond me.
(10-15-2017, 12:18 PM)Robyn Wrote: I don’t see why Adalind needed to help the people who stole her child to establish that she’s capable of being good. Prior to retrofitting the character into a ‘bad girl saved by the love of a good man’ scenario for S5, the show established that Adalind wanted to be a better person and a good mother in S3.
Wanting to be a good person and proving oneself to be a good person are two different things. How else was Adalind going to be a good person other than helping the scoobies?
But aside from that, I don't get Adalind turning a blind eye to the danger Diana would be in. If she is all about her children now, it seems insensitive and cold to ignore all of that so she could present some ridiculous suppression potion for Juliette.
(10-15-2017, 12:18 PM)Robyn Wrote: Kelly’s not dead because Juliette, Adalind, or anyone else betrayed her. Kelly is dead because she stole the powerful baby with Royal blood then was stupid enough to waltz into a dark house with the child.
I couldn't agree more, but tell that to those who believe otherwise.
(10-15-2017, 01:30 PM)irukandji Wrote:She showed up with a baby, made the suppressant, she didn't earn his trust beyond wanting to keep her child safe and making a potion that did exactly as she said. We've been down this road before where we've talked about Nick not trusting Adalind completely until S6.(10-15-2017, 01:21 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: How can Adalind betray Kelly when Adalind never had Kelly's trust? Juliette is the one that had her trust and that's why Kelly rushed back to Portland. Kenneth knew that Juliette would be a much better option to get Kelly to come back to Portland than Adalind ever would be.
Who said she needed Kelly's trust? Nick knew how to reach Kelly and Adalind gained his trust very quickly just by showing up with his baby and then offering a suppression potion for Juliette.
Had Adalind broken the news about Kenneth to Nick immediately after Juliette came barging in, Nick could have contacted mother Kelly right in the precinct and warned her. So who's the worse betrayer, the woman who kept silent or the woman who sent the email?
As for the email, it was Nick's stupidity that allowed Juliette to send it in the first place.
RE: Nick - Hell Rell - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:30 PM)irukandji Wrote:(10-15-2017, 01:21 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: How can Adalind betray Kelly when Adalind never had Kelly's trust? Juliette is the one that had her trust and that's why Kelly rushed back to Portland. Kenneth knew that Juliette would be a much better option to get Kelly to come back to Portland than Adalind ever would be.
Who said she needed Kelly's trust? Nick knew how to reach Kelly and Adalind gained his trust very quickly just by showing up with his baby and then offering a suppression potion for Juliette.
Had Adalind broken the news about Kenneth to Nick immediately after Juliette came barging in, Nick could have contacted mother Kelly right in the precinct and warned her. So who's the worse betrayer, the woman who kept silent or the woman who sent the email?
Is this a trick question? It's undoubtedly the woman that sent the email.
As for trust, Nick was pretty desperate to protect his child and "fix" Juliette at the time. I wouldn't label it as trust. It has more to do with desperation than it does with trust.
Adalind was a little occupied with hiding from Juliette. I blame her for a lot of things but I'm not going to put this one on her.
RE: Nick - irukandji - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Is this a trick question? It's undoubtedly the woman that sent the email.
If Adalind had warned Nick and Nick warned Kelly, Juliette's email would have been ignored.
(10-15-2017, 01:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: As for trust, Nick was pretty desperate to protect his child and "fix" Juliette at the time. I wouldn't label as trust. It has more to do with desperation than it does with trust.
Doesn't matter a bit what you call it. Nick allowed her into his circle of friends and they all followed her instructions to prepare a potion she said would work.
(10-15-2017, 01:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Adalind was a little occupied with hiding from Juliette. I blame her for a lot of things but I'm not going to put this one on her.
You don't need to. That's not why I posted it. All I'm stating is it's a fact that Kenneth told Adalind of his plan and Juliette's involvement, and Adalind did nothing about it.
RE: Nick - rpmaluki - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:27 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:Yes, Nick and Renard were extreme cases where they had no control over their actions as shown. Renard was possessed and oblivious to what happened during the periods Jack was in control. Nick, much like all those affected with him was something else completely, mindless zombies. They all needed curing to restore them back to their normal self. Juliette was making conscious decisions from the moment she realised what was happening with her. She was in control,worried she'd hurt someone (except Adalind) until she got mad at those people she was afraid to hurt said f#@! it she liked what she'd becomeand wasn't going to change back/suppress it etc. There was no forcing her to take the any potion, especially once she destroyed it.(10-15-2017, 11:56 AM)irukandji Wrote: I wanted to ask a question about this.
If the scoobies had complete control of the situation and Juliette refused to take the potion, would they have let her go?
Good question. They did force both Ripper Renard and Zombie Nick to take a cure but those situations were quite different. Renard and Nick had zero control over their actions while Juliette did. I don't think they would've forced her to take the potion and they would let her go instead even though they really didn't want to do it.
(10-15-2017, 01:44 PM)irukandji Wrote:Did he tell Adalind he planned to kill Kelly?(10-15-2017, 01:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Is this a trick question? It's undoubtedly the woman that sent the email.
If Adalind had warned Nick and Nick warned Kelly, Juliette's email would have been ignored.
(10-15-2017, 01:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: As for trust, Nick was pretty desperate to protect his child and "fix" Juliette at the time. I wouldn't label as trust. It has more to do with desperation than it does with trust.
Doesn't matter a bit what you call it. Nick allowed her into his circle of friends and they all followed her instructions to prepare a potion she said would work.
(10-15-2017, 01:35 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Adalind was a little occupied with hiding from Juliette. I blame her for a lot of things but I'm not going to put this one on her.
You don't need to. That's not why I posted it. All I'm stating is it's a fact that Kenneth told Adalind of his plan and Juliette's involvement, and Adalind did nothing about it.
RE: Nick - irukandji - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:27 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Good question. They did force both Ripper Renard and Zombie Nick to take a cure but those situations were quite different. Renard and Nick had zero control over their actions while Juliette did. I don't think they would've forced her to take the potion and they would let her go instead even though they really didn't want to do it.
You know, I don't think so. Even Rosalee confirmed the meeting was to fix Juliette. There was no choice involved whether Juliette wanted to be fixed or not. And later, during the same meeting, Juliette told them she liked who she was to which Nick replied, something along the line of "we don't".
I think it was either revert to human or adios and off to the cemetery for Juliette.
(10-15-2017, 01:44 PM)rpmaluki Wrote: Did he tell Adalind he planned to kill Kelly?
I don't think he planned to kill Kelly.
RE: Nick - Robyn - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:25 PM)irukandji Wrote: I thought there was some mishap in (South America? I can't recall where they were going) that prevented Kelly from accomplishing her mission. So the plane was redirected to Nick's. Why there I don't know, but I thought it was at Kelly's direction. Why she was following orders to begin with and then diverted course without checking with the person or persons unknown directing this mission is beyond me.There was. The Royals most likely learned that Adalind and the baby were being taking to Brazil. So Kelly redirecting the plane and not telling anyone right away made sense. Kelly deciding the new plan would be her taking the baby and the others telling Adalind the Royals took her, not so much.
(10-15-2017, 01:25 PM)irukandji Wrote: Wanting to be a good person and proving oneself to be a good person are two different things. How else was Adalind going to be a good person other than helping the scoobies?But why would Adalind need to prove to anyone other than herself and her daughter that she would follow through and create a loving and safe home for them? Adalind didn’t go to Nick to say I’m good now and here to help. She went to him because he was her last hope for survival. The potion was intended as an exchange Nick wouldn’t refuse - Adalind would suppress Juliette’s Hexenbiest and Nick would protect Adalind.
But aside from that, I don't get Adalind turning a blind eye to the danger Diana would be in. If she is all about her children now, it seems insensitive and cold to ignore all of that so she could present some ridiculous suppression potion for Juliette.
Adalind’s options were to allow the Royals to get Diana and hope Nick could/would intervene or get word to Kelly through Nick that she’s walking into a trap. One option gives her at least a chance to get Diana back, the other option gives her zero chance. The Royals were bloodthirsty cutthroats, but retrieving Diana was Kenneth’s priority. Even by Diana’s account of the event, she wasn’t in the room where they were fighting. I’m not suggesting it was a safe environment, only that it was one of the two environments available. There are extremely conflicting opinions on the forum of Kelly taking Diana. I don’t think Adalind should have seen Kelly as the automatically safer or preferred option just because she was a Grimm and Nick’s mother.
I agree with you that Juliette shouldn’t carry all the blame for everything that went down. But I don’t think that blame should be shifted to Adalind. Too many people did too many things that caused that chain of events for any one person to be held accountable. There were only two innocent victims in that mess - Diana and the unborn baby. All the adults were directly involved in bringing about the horrendous conclusion of S4.
RE: Nick - irukandji - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 02:21 PM)Robyn Wrote: But why would Adalind need to prove to anyone other than herself and her daughter that she would follow through and create a loving and safe home for them? Adalind didn’t go to Nick to say I’m good now and here to help. She went to him because he was her last hope for survival. The potion was intended as an exchange Nick wouldn’t refuse - Adalind would suppress Juliette’s Hexenbiest and Nick would protect Adalind.
Maybe I misread your earlier comment, Robyn, but I got the impression you were stating Adalind could be a good person simply by putting her children first. I am of the opinion that simply because a woman is a good mother, that does not automatically promote her to the good person club.
I've known and worked for a lot of bitchy women who were great mothers. I'll be the first to admit that. But they were still bitches just the same.
I would prefer Adalind not have to prove she's good to the scoobies, but then, who else is there? The series made it plain that she had to depend on Nick from day one and if she wanted to get the scoobies' trust, she had to do things like help Rosalee in the spice shop to get some bonding time going.
(10-15-2017, 02:21 PM)Robyn Wrote: I agree with you that Juliette shouldn’t carry all the blame for everything that went down. But I don’t think that blame should be shifted to Adalind. Too many people did too many things that caused that chain of events for any one person to be held accountable. There were only two innocent victims in that mess - Diana and the unborn baby. All the adults were directly involved in bringing about the horrendous conclusion of S4.
Juliette did some horrendous things that night along with Nick, Monroe, Hank and Wu. I don't think Kelly is the madonna here either. She should have butted out and let Adalind care for her baby. So they all are guilty as far as I'm concerned. I'm only saying Adalind knew what was about to go down and instead offered a solution that was lame at best. That doesn't make her a good person.
RE: Nick - dicappatore - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 01:21 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(10-15-2017, 10:50 AM)irukandji Wrote: Excuse her all you want, it's your opinion. I thought she was good too, until I read the script, which clearly points to what Adalind knew. Now, everything I read about how good Adalind is reverts back to, yes, but she had the opportunity to do something really important and really good and she didn't. So she betrayed Kelly right alongside Juliette. In spirit of course.
How can Adalind betray Kelly when Adalind never had Kelly's trust? Juliette is the one that had her trust and that's why Kelly rushed back to Portland. Kenneth knew that Juliette would be a much better option to get Kelly to come back to Portland than Adalind ever would be.
Ultimately, Juliette is the one that sent the email to get Kelly to come back to Portland. She's the one who told her I was safe to enter the house and she's the one who sat upstairs and did nothing while Kelly was ambushed.
HR, makes you wonder. What were they watching. Personally, knowing my in-laws. I don't even believe in what they are convinced and believe, let alone, trust them with my safety. How did Ragan say it? "Trust, but Verify” She had no reasons to doubt Juliette and paid dearly for it.
As for the point of Kelly taking away a child of Royal blood. Who had more of a claim of Diana. No debate on Adalind's right to get her back. But what about the Royals. Did the King have more right to have his granddaughter than Sean? A step son that was repulsed by the family? Wasn't Renard part of the conspiracy to get Diana to Kelly?
As for Adalind able to foresee what was going to happen to Kelly? Was clairvoyance a skill set for the Hexenbeist? Maybe she got that skill from rubbing that special cream on her belly.
RE: Nick - Hell Rell - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 02:04 PM)irukandji Wrote:(10-15-2017, 01:27 PM)Hell Rell Wrote: Good question. They did force both Ripper Renard and Zombie Nick to take a cure but those situations were quite different. Renard and Nick had zero control over their actions while Juliette did. I don't think they would've forced her to take the potion and they would let her go instead even though they really didn't want to do it.
You know, I don't think so. Even Rosalee confirmed the meeting was to fix Juliette. There was no choice involved whether Juliette wanted to be fixed or not. And later, during the same meeting, Juliette told them she liked who she was to which Nick replied, something along the line of "we don't".
I think it was either revert to human or adios and off to the cemetery for Juliette.
They gave Juliette the choice by handing her the suppressant instead of injecting her against her will.
Nick said "we don't" after Juliette shook the shop, threw Rosalee across the room, and tossed Monroe aside. She was proving to be extremely dangerous unchecked. Nick didn't come out and say that at the start of the meeting because none of them were trying to be antagonistic. They would've had a surefire plan to get Juliette to ingest the suppressant if they truly were planning on forcing her to take it all along. They still held on to the notion that Juliette wasn't too far gone. It wasn't until after she had Nick point the gun at Monroe that they admitted Juliette isn't worth trying to help anymore.
RE: Nick - Robyn - 10-15-2017
(10-15-2017, 02:50 PM)irukandji Wrote: Maybe I misread your earlier comment, Robyn, but I got the impression you were stating Adalind could be a good person simply by putting her children first. I am of the opinion that simply because a woman is a good mother, that does not automatically promote her to the good person club.Being a good parent doesn’t necessarily equate to being an overall good person. But at that moment, Adalind was trying to get back one child and keep another one safe. Whether Adalind would ever care about Kelly’s wellbeing is debatable, but at that moment Kelly definitely wasn’t her concern. Adalind was reacting to the moment - get away from Kenneth before he handed her over to Juliette and get to safety. She hadn’t yet contemplated what might come next other than a possible opportunity to get Diana back. But as I said before, I don’t think Adalind cared that Kelly might die, and I don’t see why she should. At least not in this specific situation where she’s surrounded by people who either took her child or intend to.
I've known and worked for a lot of bitchy women who were great mothers. I'll be the first to admit that. But they were still bitches just the same.
(10-15-2017, 02:50 PM)irukandji Wrote: I would prefer Adalind not have to prove she's good to the scoobies, but then, who else is there? The series made it plain that she had to depend on Nick from day one and if she wanted to get the scoobies' trust, she had to do things like help Rosalee in the spice shop to get some bonding time going.Considering they took Diana then lied about who had her, I don’t see any reason that Adalind should care what happens to any of them. You make a good point that Adalind didn’t have anyone to prove herself to other than Nick and his friends. The writers wrote Adalind into a very confined storyline. She could either earn her way into the Grimm club or try to sneak away with the baby with no money, nowhere to go, and no way to get to Diana.
Adalind revealed herself to confront Rosalee’s old boyfriend, but at that point the show had established some level of friendship. But Adalind wasn’t friends with anyone in S4. So to me, Adalind not helping anyone in S4 unless it also helped her made sense.
(10-15-2017, 02:50 PM)irukandji Wrote: Juliette did some horrendous things that night along with Nick, Monroe, Hank and Wu. I don't think Kelly is the madonna here either. She should have butted out and let Adalind care for her baby. So they all are guilty as far as I'm concerned. I'm only saying Adalind knew what was about to go down and instead offered a solution that was lame at best. That doesn't make her a good person.Adalind's solution might be lame for Nick, but her solution was aimed at what was best for her and the children, no one else. When Nick returned from battling the Royals, Adalind immediately said, "you didn't get Diana". She wasn't concerned for anyone else, and rightly so.
No, nothing Adalind did that night makes her a good person. But that arc/finale wasn't about Adalind's elevation to good. It only served to position her for the S5 Nick/Adalind storyline. As far as the show's concerned, Adalind became a good person because of living with and falling in love with Nick. Apologies if that sent you running for the barf bag. *grin*