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+---- Thread: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy (/Thread-WarGames-Players-diplomacy-and-strategy)
WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-21-2015
I would like to suggest a debate about the conflicts happening in Grimm and what it can mean for the future of the history.
I would like to talk about groups, not individual characters.
I see five main groups in Grimm:
The wesen uprising
The royals
The resistance
The Hadrian's wall
The society
In this scenario I see the council more as a wesen government institution than as a group of fight. Does anyone see it in different way?
Does anyone see any other group in the war happening in season five?
How do you see the objectives of each group?
How do you see their actions until now and manly possible strategies for the future?
The main question: how do you see the possibility of alliances between those groups now and in the future?
I will post my views in another post.
Edited after New Guy post to add society group. I am not calling it human as New Guy did because we can have Grimms and wesen (New Guy wrote the Scoobie) in this group, people that at least for while is part of no other group.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - New Guy - 12-21-2015
Hi Adriano,
You posed some good questions:
Quote:Does anyone see any other group in the war happening in season five?- I would add humans. It seems the Black Claw wants to make us slaves.
Quote:How do you see the objectives of each group?The wesen uprising {Black Claw} - World domination.
The royals - World domination.
The resistance - Contain Royals.
The Hadrian's wall - Unclear. Anti Black Claw.
Humans - Peace and prosperity. (except for various terrorists) I Put Nick and the Scoobies in this group.
Except for the humans, the groups use violence and oppression as the strategy to attain goals. If HW is a SGO, the nations of the world will bring in military force to subdue the uprising. The problem will be Wesen who are part of human military (moles).
Quote:The main question: how do you see the possibility of alliances between those groups now and in the future?I expect they will not be able to form alliances. The fighting will continue until subdued by force. The (BC in particular) seem quite irrational and not only will die for the cause, but jump to their death for the cause.
New Guy
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - syscrash - 12-21-2015
The council is the group that is charged with being sure wesen uphold wesen laws. The most important not divulging the secrete of wesen existence.
The royals are the group that controls and allows wesen to coexist with humans. The royals only allow wesen to exist because you have come to realize their value. A value which the Royals are quick to exploit. But like any aristocracy they rule by might, and conquering their enemies.
The resistance are the wesen that want to be left alone. Not to be exploited by others for their abilities.
The hadrian's wall and the uprising.
The uprising are the wesen that are being incited to fight to take their rightful place at the top of the food chain. They are more powerful then any human but relegated to second class citizen.
HW is the government organization that is tasked with controlling an putting an end to any and all types of terrorist activity. I bet we see HW ideology as the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. Unlike Nick who will see the human side of the uprising. Nick is the policeman that would want to arrest a bomber instead of putting a sniper on the roof.
Season five will pattern the current event of terrorism and civil unrest. The show will mix the two as a definition of the uprising.
We will see HW, and Nick at odds over the solution. Nick will be lets negotiate and come to a working understanding. The HW will want to eliminate all uprising members. HW will use the uprising's prior acts of violence to justify the extermination. Because the public can see the uprising's violence, the public will be on board with the elimination of this hate group as they will be portrayed. The public will not know the hate is wesen related.
This is where viewer prospective will get interesting. You will have those in the camp of Eve the hero. She will be seen a hero because she is eliminating the group that is developing an increased body count. A group who acts of violence and terror will increase. A comparison would be, nazi germany, or the current middle east. Both groups based on their ideology preformed some horrendous acts. Even currently there are many that advocate for the elimination of the entire group and any potentials. Then you have Nick, the one who does not paint everybody with the same broad brush. He is the one who does not see all wesen as potential members of the uprising. Just like all Germans where not Nazi, and all Muslims are not terrorist.
Where Eve will be mission driven, only considering the collateral damage after the fact. But justify it as the price of conflict. By eliminating known members and future members they are preventing future deaths. We have seen Trubel is having a problem with this directive. Her conscious has her questioning some of the kills.
What looks like a conflict between meisner and Trubel, might be Meisner putting in to play a mission that will most likely have a body count, and Trubel not down with the mass execution. Even though the show gives us a back story of some horrendous act the group just performed. Coupled with, Meisner plans to execute the plan at a time when the known terrorist are with friends and family. The only time they will not be in hiding. HW attack will be equivalent to a drone strike.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - jsgrimm45 - 12-21-2015
Good place to start what "is" going on.
I'll start with a group the one I think is the main group Grimms not a Grimm but Grimms in general.
Of all the groups you listed correct but all have one thing in common (one way or another) Grimms. All the groups to some degree one either fear a Grimm or want a Grimm on they side. Ian told Nick that Grimms changed thing when the helped the royals. I don't think he said when this happened just that it did, then for some reason the Grimms and royal had falling out. We don't know of a single Grimm working for the royals.
I like you didn't think the council has any great fighting units it is just a gov. group that uses agents as needed. Maybe having a handful of agents on staff at any one time. I see them as having less involvement with Grimms than say other groups because the know the wesen fear Grimms.
The Black Claw we still are in the dark on all its goals but as @New Guys says they want if not World domination at least human domination (I'm thinking Harry Potter and the Dark Lord). But back to Grimm's they know they change the picture a single Grimm can defeat any wesen or small group of wesen 2 or 3 at a time.
HW good question you, @wfmyers1207 and I see this group being around from at least the WWII timeframe, but could be that HW has been around longer? The old HW brought OSS, MI6, and others into this world in WWII. Did BC plan this at the end of WWII and fail because of HW? After all the whole world was a mess.
I don't see the resistance knowing of either HW or BC it has only one goaled the royals, but now I do see this changing soon. I see it is in the best interest of the resistance to help HW. That is also why I see Diana coming back to Adalind.
Royals they are the question mark I not sure they are not behind this with money and secret support thinking this is just the thing to get them back in power, or maybe they will just set on the sidelines to see how it breaks out, but I think they are behind this (could be wrong). That is why I think no Grimm works for the royals now they have tried this in the past.
Ian said in season 1 they had been moving people into everything they could crime etc. So I see BC being the action from this plan. This also puts the council, resistance, and HW on the same side.
All comes down to the Grimm factor.
Hair
(12-21-2015, 02:15 PM)syscrash Wrote: The council is the group that is charged with being sure wesen uphold wesen laws. The most important not divulging the secrete of wesen existence.Great read. Good way of connecting today's world with the Grimm world.
The royals are the group that controls and allows wesen to coexist with humans. The royals only allow wesen to exist because you have come to realize their value. A value which the Royals are quick to exploit. But like any aristocracy they rule by might, and conquering their enemies.
The resistance are the wesen that want to be left alone. Not to be exploited by others for their abilities.
The hadrian's wall and the uprising.
The uprising are the wesen that are being incited to fight to take their rightful place at the top of the food chain. They are more powerful then any human but relegated to second class citizen.
HW is the government organization that is tasked with controlling an putting an end to any and all types of terrorist activity. I bet we see HW ideology as the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist. Unlike Nick who will see the human side of the uprising. Nick is the policeman that would want to arrest a bomber instead of putting a sniper on the roof.
Season five will pattern the current event of terrorism and civil unrest. The show will mix the two as a definition of the uprising.
We will see HW, and Nick at odds over the solution. Nick will be lets negotiate and come to a working understanding. The HW will want to eliminate all uprising members. HW will use the uprising's prior acts of violence to justify the extermination. Because the public can see the uprising's violence, the public will be on board with the elimination of this hate group as they will be portrayed. The public will not know the hate is wesen related.
This is where viewer prospective will get interesting. You will have those in the camp of Eve the hero. She will be seen a hero because she is eliminating the group that is developing an increased body count. A group who acts of violence and terror will increase. A comparison would be, nazi germany, or the current middle east. Both groups based on their ideology preformed some horrendous acts. Even currently there are many that advocate for the elimination of the entire group and any potentials. Then you have Nick, the one who does not paint everybody with the same broad brush. He is the one who does not see all wesen as potential members of the uprising. Just like all Germans where not Nazi, and all Muslims are not terrorist.
Where Eve will be mission driven, only considering the collateral damage after the fact. But justify it as the price of conflict. By eliminating known members and future members they are preventing future deaths. We have seen Trubel is having a problem with this directive. Her conscious has her questioning some of the kills.
What looks like a conflict between meisner and Trubel, might be Meisner putting in to play a mission that will most likely have a body count, and Trubel not down with the mass execution. Even though the show gives us a back story of some horrendous act the group just performed. Coupled with, Meisner plans to execute the plan at a time when the known terrorist are with friends and family. The only time they will not be in hiding. HW attack will be equivalent to a drone strike.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-21-2015
Thanks for the answers until now. I will post my view above and them I will comment the answers.
-> Player objetives
I think Wesen uprising wants to revel themselves to the world. Think about their moto translated as something like “Free the hidden”. I think the hidden means the wesen as the world doen’t know about them. So free the hidden may mean something like revel the hidden to the world.
They certainly believe the wesens are strong them the rest of the world wich means they believe they should rule the world. Their final objective is to dominate the humans.
The royals also want to dominate the world. But while the wesen uprising is more destructive, the royals “need” the others to exist to be ruled by them. I mean: The royals believe they must rule the world because they are born to it. The wesen uprising belive they must rule the world because they want and they are strong to do this.
Until now, the resistance just want to avoid the royals government. And the Hadrian’s Wall, apparently, is an anti-Wesen Uprising group.
The society are all those people (human, wesen, grimm) that simply wants to live their lives with freedom and in peace.
-> Diplomacy
Comparing all the groups, they may have some common interests in their objectives. For example, they royals may want the end of the wesen uprising since both can’t rule at the same time. In this case, HW and royals are in the same side. The resistance doesn’t want to be ruled by royals. Certainly they would not want to be ruled the wesen uprising too, just as the society.
The HW as a group serves the government. Maybe they don’t care who is ruling as far as things are running normally. This means that they don’t care about royals, but fight against the wesen uprising.
I don’t know how the writers will play this in the show, but in a real life situation and considering the common points I have posted above, we would have some of the groups would join in a circumstantial alliance against the uprising. As a real example, think about the alliance between USA and URSS in the WWII against Hitler. This is a typical situation: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
In grimm, the promo for episode seven says: only the grimms have the key…
I am pretty sure they are talking about the treasure in the black forest and the keys to find and open the treasure. The royals have some of the keys which means that if HW wants to use the treasure against the wesen uprising, they will have to make some kind of agreement with the royals to get their keys (or stole it from them).
-> Strategy
Wesen uprising is using terrorism as strategy. I can’t see them having any kind of alliance with any other group.
I think the royals want to control the wesen power. The key treasure must be something that allow them to control the wesen. Diana is a powerful new kind of wesen that Frederick wanted to use probably to somehow control other wesens.
The resistance is a group that doesn’t know what is going on yet. How the resistance will react to the wesen uprising is the question. The same for the society.
The HW is the interesting point here. Apparently they are using all available resources. They are using grimm. They are using wesen. They are using double agents infiltrate in the resistance (Meisner). They are using dark magic to convert “normal” wesen in superpower agents (Eve). I think HW has Diana. I don’t think Meisner gave her to the resistance. If the HW went after Juliette to convert she in Eve, why wouldn’t they do something like that with Diana? Considering how powerful she is.
Apparently HW wants to use the keys also against the wesen uprising.
The most interesting thing I want to see is how the writers will play the betrayals and the double agents in the show. Viktor betrayed Frederick. Meisner used the resistance to get to Diana. I think many resistance members maybe also from the wesen uprising. There are many options here.
-> Main weapons
This should be described in the strategy. But I think it is interesting to separate in its own group. Apparently the main weapons in this war are: Grimms, super wesens and the treasure hided by the keys.
Hi New Guy, thanks for your answer. That’s a very good one. I have just one comment:
(12-21-2015, 01:38 PM)New Guy Wrote: I would add humans. It seems the Black Claw wants to make us slaves.
{…}
Humans - Peace and prosperity. (except for various terrorists) I Put Nick and the Scoobies in this group.
I don’t think they want to dominate only humans. In episode 6 they attacked only wesen properties. Apparently they are first attacking wesens that don’t believe the same thing as they believe. As you considered the scoobies in the group and some wesen are member of the scoobies, I am considering this group as society since I think this includes other type of people.
And as far as I know, the royals are just as human as the rest of us. (obs. Personally I prefer to believe royals are a different kind by they own, but this is another debate and as far as I remember, officially they are just humans).
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - syscrash - 12-21-2015
So far the show has not been about betrayal or double agents. Sean was the only one using double agents. The show has always been about the moral dilemma's caused by prejudices, and the conflict of cultural norms vs social norms. What come to mind that describes the show. "Don't judge by it cover". That is why we have a blutbod that is not a killer, and a fuchbau that is not a thief. We have a Grimm that helps wesen, now a hexenbiest learning compassion from a Grimm. This is what the show has been, an more the likely will continue to be.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-21-2015
Hi syscrash.
Thanks for your answer. This is a very good reading.
(12-21-2015, 02:15 PM)syscrash Wrote: This is where viewer prospective will get interesting. You will have those in the camp of Eve the hero. She will be seen a hero because she is eliminating the group that is developing an increased body count. A group who acts of violence and terror will increase. A comparison would be, nazi germany, or the current middle east. Both groups based on their ideology preformed some horrendous acts. Even currently there are many that advocate for the elimination of the entire group and any potentials. Then you have Nick, the one who does not paint everybody with the same broad brush. He is the one who does not see all wesen as potential members of the uprising. Just like all Germans where not Nazi, and all Muslims are not terrorist.
I really liked this paragraph and the connection you have done with the terrorism. Thinking about the show, I was thinking about the relation between the groups.
I don’t know if the writers will play things this way, but thinking about the strategies of each group, do you think the following scenario is possible?
The royals are in secret incentivizing the wesen uprising as a way to create fear. At the same time, they are financing the HW to control the wesen uprising. The royals objectives would be to use the fear of the wesen uprising and the task of the HW to get to the missing keys and this way justify the finding of the hidden treasure. In the right moment, the royals would just show up as the salvation against the wesen uprising. What do you thing?
Hi jsgrimm45. Thanks for your answer. I have just one comment.
(12-21-2015, 03:13 PM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: I'll start with a group the one I think is the main group Grimms not a Grimm but Grimms in general.
I didn’t considered grimm as a group by they own because grimm can be working with almost any of them (I would exclude just the wesen uprising). This way, in some moment you can have grimms from different groups fighting each other (I would like to see this). For exemple, a grimm working for the resistance versus a grimm working for the resistance.
That is why I considered grimms as a weapon.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - syscrash - 12-21-2015
I would agree that the uprising is being instigated by some group that will capitalize on the uprising terrorist acts. The uprising belief is not the end game.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 12-21-2015
(12-21-2015, 05:19 PM)syscrash Wrote: So far the show has not been about betrayal or double agents. Sean was the only one using double agents. The show has always been about the moral dilemma's caused by prejudices, and the conflict of cultural norms vs social norms. What come to mind that describes the show. "Don't judge by it cover". That is why we have a blutbod that is not a killer, and a fuchbau that is not a thief. We have a Grimm that helps wesen, now a hexenbiest learning compassion from a Grimm. This is what the show has been, an more the likely will continue to be.
I see your point here and I see the show almost in the same way as you do. But Sean is not the only one to use betrayal and double agent. In a limited way, Kenneth used Juliette to betray Nick. Adelaind worked for Sean. Then she worked for the royals. Then she escaped from the royals with Diana. Then she worked again for the royals to get Diana back.
For while, Meisner is some kind of doube agent. Does he work for the resistance or for the HW?
In the begging, Sean himself betrayed the royals. According to Meisner, Vikotr betrayed the king.
What I want to say is that betrayal in grimm is not so unusual as it looks like. This is not the focus of the show, I agree with you on that: this is not the main subject of the show. But this happens in the details.
(12-21-2015, 05:44 PM)syscrash Wrote: I would agree that the uprising is being instigated by some group that will capitalize on the uprising terrorist acts. The uprising belief is not the end game.
Just a small sentence. But a big quantity of possible speculations for us to talk about. I totally agree that the uprising belief is not the end game.
How will the writers play this card? Who is the group using the wesen uprising? Will the writers bring new players to the game? Will they use the royals as those behind the wesen uprising?
Just to think.
RE: WarGames: Players, diplomacy and strategy - irukandji - 12-21-2015
I thought in the last episode there was some kind of statement that humanity was on the verge of extinction, something like that. I think the storyline of an uprising is a great one, but I see so many loopholes as far as Grimm is concerned.
For example, are there really all that many wesen out there who are capable of exterminating humans and wesen who don't see it their way? The way Grimm has played it, there have only been a few bad apples from each of the different wesen strains. I understood most wesen are peace loving and want to get along in society.