(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?

Quote:irukandji Wrote:
What thing about Adalind? Certainly if Nick had misgivings about allowing her to become a Scooby, he wouldn't have waited until she was in labor, right?

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: Please explain to me why he would make the choice to make her a Scooby? I honestly don't understand where you are getting that impression from canon. In my mind he's enlisted Adalind's help to try find a way to make things better for Juliette. And she randomly manages to point them in the right direction on how to help Sean. I don't see that idea go beyond that at that point. And I do not understand where you get that idea.

The only thing that would possibly make sense for me in that direction would be if somehow feeling Kelly kick had made him want to be a dad and that could possibly motivate him to bring her into the fold for any reason other than trying to get her to help Juliette. But if he did it for that reason, he'd be sure about wanting to be Kelly's dad by 5.01.

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?

How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?

Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: [If he had told Adalind to run... where to?

Wherever he felt she would be safe.

Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".

(04-30-2018, 02:01 PM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 12:29 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Excellent, post well thought out and I wholeheartedly a agree with everything you stated, it’s pretty clear to me Nick handled the situation in the precint the best he possibly could given the extreme circumstances surrounding the precinct scene. I also agree it is a bit hypocritical calling out Nick merely for protecting a pregnant Adalind, while Juliette slept with Renard a man who has caused them both as much if not more pain than Adalind .

Thank you, I'm glad you think it makes sense.

(05-01-2018, 05:15 AM)Robyn Wrote: I can’t remember but don’t think Nick was aware that Kenneth was purposely antagonizing Juliette’s emotional state. And because Adalind chose not to disclose that Kenneth was manipulating Juliette for his benefit, it’s reasonable that Nick’s only objective was to salvage his relationship with Juliette while protecting his unborn child. I didn’t see any indication that Nick felt a responsibility to Adalind other than his child’s wellbeing was directly dependent on her wellbeing and he needed her to create the suppression potion. Because to Nick, Juliette’s Hexenbiest was the only detriment to the relationship and his unborn child.

I’m onboard with Adalind not sharing any information that could potentially compromise her and the baby’s safety and getting Diana back. But realistically, Nick might have taken a different approach had Adalind told him about Kenneth’s plan for Juliette and luring his mother to Portland. Because IIRC, Nick assumed Juliette's behavior at the Spice Shop was solely due to the Hexenbiest's influence. And once Juliette refused the suppressant and announced she had embraced her new life, there wasn't anything he could do other than go on the offensive.

(05-01-2018, 05:47 AM)New Guy Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 02:01 PM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 12:29 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Excellent, post well thought out and I wholeheartedly a agree with everything you stated, it’s pretty clear to me Nick handled the situation in the precint the best he possibly could given the extreme circumstances surrounding the precinct scene. I also agree it is a bit hypocritical calling out Nick merely for protecting a pregnant Adalind, while Juliette slept with Renard a man who has caused them both as much if not more pain than Adalind .

Thank you, I'm glad you think it makes sense.

Hi Zansy,
Your post was one of the best ever presented on this Forum. Kudos!
N G

(05-01-2018, 06:05 AM)dicappatore Wrote:

(05-01-2018, 05:15 AM)Robyn Wrote: I can’t remember but don’t think Nick was aware that Kenneth was purposely antagonizing Juliette’s emotional state. And because Adalind chose not to disclose that Kenneth was manipulating Juliette for his benefit, it’s reasonable that Nick’s only objective was to salvage his relationship with Juliette while protecting his unborn child. I didn’t see any indication that Nick felt a responsibility to Adalind other than his child’s wellbeing was directly dependent on her wellbeing and he needed her to create the suppression potion. Because to Nick, Juliette’s Hexenbiest was the only detriment to the relationship and his unborn child.

I’m onboard with Adalind not sharing any information that could potentially compromise her and the baby’s safety and getting Diana back. But realistically, Nick might have taken a different approach had Adalind told him about Kenneth’s plan for Juliette and luring his mother to Portland. Because IIRC, Nick assumed Juliette's behavior at the Spice Shop was solely due to the Hexenbiest's influence. And once Juliette refused the suppressant and announced she had embraced her new life, there wasn't anything he could do other than go on the offensive.

I clearly remember Nick was not in-the-know, what Ken had planned. Ken only got to antagonize Juliette just after he posted bail. Nick was probably shocked that she was out on bail when he saw her waltz in the precinct.

My question to you is, how much of Ken's plan was Adalind aware of. He did mention to Adalind he figured out that Nick was the father of her new pregnancy. As I recall, Adalind did comment to Ken, Juliette would never turn against Nick. Once Juliette walked in the police station, the hat was out of the bag about Juliette knowing who got her pregnant.

We are talking about minutes from the time Ken telling her, to the time of her, confronting the two. She showed up right after she got bailed out. The time spent, for her to brew her anger was the time spent for a Uber driver to take her from lock-up to the precinct.

If Adalind knew and had told Nick about Ken's plans with Juliette, it would have been just seconds after Adalind told Nick he was the daddy and only a few minutes before she shows up. Remember, Adalind had known Ken was up to something but not specifics.

Would her knowing and telling Nick had made any differences?

---

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(05-01-2018, 05:47 AM)New Guy Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 02:01 PM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 12:29 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Excellent, post well thought out and I wholeheartedly a agree with everything you stated, it’s pretty clear to me Nick handled the situation in the precint the best he possibly could given the extreme circumstances surrounding the precinct scene. I also agree it is a bit hypocritical calling out Nick merely for protecting a pregnant Adalind, while Juliette slept with Renard a man who has caused them both as much if not more pain than Adalind .

Thank you, I'm glad you think it makes sense.

Hi Zansy,
Your post was one of the best ever presented on this Forum. Kudos!
N G

I second those Kudos also. I wonder if (cough) "SOME" might disagree.

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote: Well now, let's go back here. I asked a question and I don't see an answer. If I missed it, please point it out to me.

What thing about Adalind are you referring to?

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?

How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?

Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.

Are you talking about when Nick took Juliette's arm?

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: [If he had told Adalind to run... where to?

Wherever he felt she would be safe.

Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.

Everyone who's posting clearly feels this was a dangerous situation, even with Nick standing by. I haven't read one post from anyone saying the situation was calmed down simply because he was there. Even you. So why is it you feel she's so much safer at Nick's side?

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".

So when Juliette stated in the spice shop (and I am paraphrasing here) that she liked who she was and Nick replied something to the effect of, "We don't", was that really a show of evidence that he was willing to try and understand Juliette as a hexenbiest?

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote: Where in all of this did he unequivocably state that he would accept Juliette no matter what? And why when she accused him of choosing Adalind over her, didn't he prove to her that she was wrong?

(05-01-2018, 06:05 AM)dicappatore Wrote:

(05-01-2018, 05:47 AM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Zansy,
Your post was one of the best ever presented on this Forum. Kudos!
N G

I second those Kudos also. I wonder if (cough) "SOME" might disagree.

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: And yes, Diccap, I know that you told me so. Feel free to state that again if you wish to, I’m fairly laid back about that sort of thing. I do hope we’ll find other topics to discuss in detail. Because I really enjoy discussions, but I prefer them if I feel that there’s a point to them. So unless the tone of the replies I receive changes I will step away from this.

(04-24-2018, 03:43 AM)dicappatore Wrote:

(04-23-2018, 09:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-23-2018, 12:39 PM)dicappatore Wrote: Here is how you insult others. In this case me, by putting words in my mouth or on my fingers typing these posts. I never asked you to butt in, Please re-read my post. However, I did ask you on how you expect your son to react to a similar situation. Your answer for him to be able to make his own decisions do not answer the question on how you expected him to react, behave.

Both my kids are grown and one is married. At this point I have done as good as a job as i could have and I hope I have given them a foundation set of values to direct them for the rest of their lives. If my son was in similar situation, I wouldn't dare to butt in, advise, if he asked for it, as he does on various matters. I would expect him to stand up for himself and write off someone in his life, similar in behavior, to Juliette.

Juliette made it specifically clear, she was done with Nick. Why are you expecting for him to take her side and not the side of his unborn child? if your son was in a similar situation, I am not asking for you to force or influence his decision in any way. My question still stands. What would you EXPECT him to do. Take the side of a woman that walked out of his life, laughed at his face and stopped communicating with him, at this point, for about a month, or more. Whom would you expect your son to favor, Adalind or Juliette.

Maybe in the real world we don't have girlfriends turning into Hexenbiests. I am sure there are relationships that have broken up yet continue to be in each other's lives.

And let me refresh your so called desire to have a mature conversation with this little tidbit:

Quote:Are you capable of being objectively at all, as a mother?

Um, I don't get the feeling you meant that as a compliment and since you don't generally converse maturely, then the only thing left is an insult. So please don't act like you're trying to be so mature when you open a post with a question like the above.

What difference does it make to Nick what Kelly expects? She wasn't around for over half of his life as it was. It's not her business and her expectations are a big fat zero where Nick is concerned.

Quote:Juliette made it specifically clear, she was done with Nick.

I know she made it clear she was done with Nick. But when does that suddenly account for hatred? Some couples have a little more going for them then just sex.

And since you're so keen on canon, I wonder why it is that you don't bring up Adalind's statement to Kenneth that Juliette would never betray Nick. For that matter, I wonder why you don't bring up Kenneth telling Juliette that she was loyal to "the Grimm even after what he'd done to her". I also wonder why you don't bring up that Juliette didn't argue with Kenneth and insist that loyalty to Nick was the furthest thing from her mind.

I know you'll never understand this, but it makes no sense that Nick wouldn't choose Juliette over Adalind during that scene. If, as you imply, Nick was trying to get Juliette back by patching things up, why all of the sudden throw all that in the garbage because Adalind comes waddling in to the precinct, claiming she's carrying his son?

All Juliette did at that point was walk out on Nick and sleep with Sean. That is something she's perfectly entitled to do. After all, Nick made it plain that he wasn't going to sleep with her and his "I love you" to her was less than heartfelt.

According to you, Nick was willing to forgive all of that because he was trying and trying and trying and trying to patch things up and get her back. She was there in the precinct. He could have easily patched things up. Yet he chose Adalind who'd done nothing but hurt him and those he loved.

I expect him to take Juliette's side because as so many here are so apt to point out, he loved Juliette and supposedly would go to hell and back for her, even if she laughed at him. I expect him to take Juliette's side because she was willing to become the final ingredient in the spell to give him back his grimm, despite side effects. I expect him to take Juliette's side because he always had her to come home to. I expect him to be there to help her. She didn't ask to become a hexenbiest and paid dearly for it.

Your quote;

Quote:And let me refresh your so called desire to have a mature conversation with this little tidbit:

Then my quote;

Quote:Are you capable of being objectively at all, as a mother?

Then your quote;

Quote:Um, I don't get the feeling you meant that as a compliment and since you don't generally converse maturely, then the only thing left is an insult. So please don't act like you're trying to be so mature when you open a post with a question like the above.

If you are considering the question “Are you capable of being objectively at all, as a mother?” as an insult. That is all on you. I was just asking a question. Not to imply, in general, you not being capable to be a mother. I was implying to be a mom to someone similar, in character, such as Nick, which it is clearly obviously, you hate. Hence the question "Are YOU capable of being objectively at all, as a mother?" Again, not in general but to this character.

Quote:What difference does it make to Nick what Kelly expects? She wasn't around for over half of his life as it was. It's not her business and her expectations are a big fat zero where Nick is concerned.

I never asked you what Kelly expects. Another character, you obviously hate. I asked you what you would expect, if you were the mother of a similar character like Nick. With objectivity.

So far, as predictable, you skewed my questions to mean or redirect to something else. I am hoping I made my self clearer by asking the same questions with better clarity.

Quote:I know she made it clear she was done with Nick. But when does that suddenly account for hatred? Some couples have a little more going for them then just sex.

IMO, the last thing in Nick's mind was to reconcile with Juliette because of sex. If anyone between the two was more concerned about sex in their relationship would be on Juliette, since SHE was the one demanding to be kissed and accepted as a Hex in voge as an old hag and was pissed off he slept on the couch but it was OK for her and you, when he slept on that same couch for weeks in S2.

Quote:And since you're so keen on canon, I wonder why it is that you don't bring up Adalind's statement to Kenneth that Juliette would never betray Nick. For that matter, I wonder why you don't bring up Kenneth telling Juliette that she was loyal to "the Grimm even after what he'd done to her". I also wonder why you don't bring up that Juliette didn't argue with Kenneth and insist that loyalty to Nick was the furthest thing from her mind.

So, just because Adalind says to Ken that Juliette would never betray Nick makes it a fact? Was Adalind even aware what Juliette had done to Nick at this point, to asses her loyalty? Did Adalind had any clue she had moved out and moved in with Sean? She was told by Ken she was arrested but did she know she had moved out on Nick? I do not recall Adalind was aware of their breakup. Again, you asses someone such as Adalind as is she knows what you know as a viewer and expect her to react as if she knows what you know. Again, a baseless opinion stated as factual.

Notice, I never mentioned that Juliette had a shagging with Sean, in this matter, since Adalind, Ken, Nick or anyone else, for that matter, is aware of it. The only ones that know is Juliette and Sean. Even up to the end of the seasons, that was never revealed to anyone else. That is why I DO NOT consider it a factor in their relationship. But I do consider it a factor when we are to be analytical viewers about our opinions.

Just because Ken ridicules Juliette of being still loyal is more speculation on your part. To me, she was being sarcastic to a guy she knew nothing of or never met. Her actions spoke a lot louder than Ken's words. What part of what she had done to Nick so far do you consider "loyal"? Ever hear the term, "actions speak louder that words"? If what Juliette is doing , at this point, as being loyal. well I guess we have different interpretation/meanings of the word.

Quote:I know you'll never understand this, but it makes no sense that Nick wouldn't choose Juliette over Adalind during that scene. If, as you imply, Nick was trying to get Juliette back by patching things up, why all of the sudden throw all that in the garbage because Adalind comes waddling in to the precinct, claiming she's carrying his son?

How is preventing one person from attacking another choosing a side? The only side I see Nick take is to protect an innocent unborn child. She is pregnant, that is a fact. Does it matter if it was his or not so far? He took an oat to serve and protect. Taking a side would be if Nick was preventing Juliette from attacking Adailnd while allowing Adalind to attack Juliette. Thats what taking sides is. More scene speculations that did not happen.

If he let Juliette attack Adalind and kill her and expecting child, lets say, as syschrash claims, she would have gotten away with it. How does that stack up with your claiming of Nick being a corrupt cop?

As for Nick trying to patch things up? Hadn't that ship sailed? What was he doing to betray Juliette? Was preventing her from getting into additional legal problems going against her? Betraying her? Isn't that also Nick protecting Juliette?

What I think you don't seem to understand there was no choice made between the two. If anything, Juliette forced Nick to seek protection for Adalind and the baby, from herself. If Juliette had never shown up to threaten her, would the gang have look to hide Adalind from Juliette? I don't think so.

Quote:All Juliette did at that point was walk out on Nick and sleep with Sean. That is something she's perfectly entitled to do. After all, Nick made it plain that he wasn't going to sleep with her and his "I love you" to her was less than heartfelt.

This I am totally in agreement. By your standards, as far as I can see, they were broken up. No longer an item. By your standards, then why is she pissed off that Adalind is carrying Nicks baby? According to you, she is perfectly entitled to do what she pleases. When Ken told Juliette that Adalind was having her boyfriend baby, why did Juliette looked pissed? According to you, more double standards. Juliette is allowed to not consider Nick her boyfriend yet you expect Nick to still treat her as a girlfriend. Why isn't Nick allowed the same? By my standards, You and Juliette seem to exercise 'Double Standards". She can move out, reject his phone calls, have sex with whom ever she wanted to but Nick isn't even allowed to protect his innocent child, which he had no choice in the making.

Quote:According to you, Nick was willing to forgive all of that because he was trying and trying and trying and trying to patch things up and get her back. She was there in the precinct. He could have easily patched things up. Yet he chose Adalind who'd done nothing but hurt him and those he loved.

Again, you seem to overlook one big factor in the equation. Just one more fact you push aside. One more part of the script you choose NOT to acknowledge. Create a scene that never happened. There was no side to take.
1) Foremost, he was doing a job as a father protecting his unborn child.
2) He was doing his job as a cop, to serve and protect. The demise of 2 persons and preventing Juliette, on bail, from getting additional charges. whether or not, syscrash is able to predict what did not happen.
3) He was doing a job as a Grimm, preventing a Hexenbiest killing an innocent unborn kid.

What was there to pact up? Are you implying if Nick stepped aside and allowed Juliette to proceed with ripping her throat out, killing Adalind and their unborn child. Would that get them back together? Would she just say "thanks Nick" and move back in and live happily ever after? Or is this just more "Fan Fiction" injected into a story line that did not happen?

Quote:I expect him to take Juliette's side because as so many here are so apt to point out, he loved Juliette and supposedly would go to hell and back for her, even if she laughed at him. I expect him to take Juliette's side because she was willing to become the final ingredient in the spell to give him back his grimm, despite side effects. I expect him to take Juliette's side because he always had her to come home to. I expect him to be there to help her. She didn't ask to become a hexenbiest and paid dearly for it.

Finally, you kinda answered my question of what you expected but NOT as a mother of a similar character like Nick, and that is fine. Again, you make claims with the incomplete account of what took place. You claim he did love Juliette to hell and back, but you seem to forget, she rejected his love to hell and back. She moved out and has sex with the Sean, his boss. The same guy that orchestrated what Adalind did to them. The same guy she had a disgusting history (S2) according to her. How can you hold Adalind accountable and not Sean for what BOTH did to Nick and Juliette? More double standards. Nick DID have sex with Adalind but it was not of his choosing. He was tricked into it. Was Juliette tricked into it?

You claim she agreed to be the final ingredient in the spell to get his Grimm back, despite side effects. You can actually predict, if Nick, Juliette and the rest of the crew, knew for a fact, the spell would result in Juliette becoming a Hexenbiest, they would have proceeded with the spell? Here is a reasonable assumption you are unable to accept. Nick would have been to 1st one to object to the spell.

You say "I expect him to take Juliette's side because he always had her to come home to" Maybe that was the case before she moved out. Again, you push aside the FACT, she wasn't home for him to come to anymore. You seem to forget what you said about her being entitled to do. Yet you expect Nick to keep the candle lit for her? Was Juliette keeping the candle lit when she tells Sean she is finishing what she started and starts to unbutton her blouse as she kissed him? Gees, you are the "Ayatollah of double standards" for sure.

You say "I expect him to be there to help her. She didn't ask to become a hexenbiest and paid dearly for it." Again, did I miss a scene where Nick asked her to become a Hexenbiest so he can get his Grimm back? At the same time, you seem to overlook Juliette's rejection to be helped and her accepting her Hex condition in S4, S5 and S6. Remember the "I found a new purpose" speech in S6?

Are all these assumptions you keep claiming as factual considered as being an intelligent mature conversation? Just asking a question, not calling anyone names.

Quote:I clearly remember Nick was not in-the-know, what Ken had planned. Ken only got to antagonize Juliette just after he posted bail. Nick was probably shocked that she was out on bail when he saw her waltz in the precinct. My question to you is, how much of Ken's plan was Adalind aware of. He did mention to Adalind he figured out that Nick was the father of her new pregnancy. As I recall, Adalind did comment to Ken, Juliette would never turn against Nick. Once Juliette walked in the police station, the hat was out of the bag about Juliette knowing who got her pregnant.

Quote:Robyn, I agree with the majorty of your post particulary about nick mainly being concernd with the safety of his unborn child and not Adalind herself. Though I think your making a bit of a leap about what Adalind knew…

(05-01-2018, 02:32 PM)Robyn Wrote:

Quote:I clearly remember Nick was not in-the-know, what Ken had planned. Ken only got to antagonize Juliette just after he posted bail. Nick was probably shocked that she was out on bail when he saw her waltz in the precinct. My question to you is, how much of Ken's plan was Adalind aware of. He did mention to Adalind he figured out that Nick was the father of her new pregnancy. As I recall, Adalind did comment to Ken, Juliette would never turn against Nick. Once Juliette walked in the police station, the hat was out of the bag about Juliette knowing who got her pregnant.

Quote:Robyn, I agree with the majorty of your post particulary about nick mainly being concernd with the safety of his unborn child and not Adalind herself. Though I think your making a bit of a leap about what Adalind knew…

Wasn’t Adalind an active participant in the Royals’ plan to kidnap Juliette as trade for Diana? Kenneth’s only alteration once learning she was a Hexenbiest was to make Juliette an ally instead of a victim. Adalind might have initially believed Juliette wouldn’t betray Nick, but that was before their precinct confrontation. Considering the hostility between Nick & Juliette at the precinct and later learning Juliette wanted to remain a Hexenbiest, it should have been a quick conclusion for Adalind that Juliette might have already told Kenneth how to find Kelly and Diana.

Again, I don’t blame Adalind for not sharing information that might allow Kelly to keep Diana hidden. But in rethinking the situation, Nick not assuming Diana was the only reason the Royals or Adalind would return to Portland makes him rather daft. At the very least, had he informed his mother of what was happening in Portland, she probably wouldn’t have returned to Portland with Diana, and certainly wouldn’t have waltzed into a dark house with her.

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: Please try not to ignore half of my post in future if you do want to continue this conversation. Otherwise I fear I must begin to agree with Henry’s and Dicapp’s assessment that you do not actually care to talk about canon. If we continue this, please find me quotes to show me what you are talking about. Thank you.

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: I am referring to his part in their child’s life. And Adalind’s. I’m not sure why that is unclear to you, as the sentence I typed reads “But if he isn't even sure about the thing with Adalind by early season five, how can he have made the choice to allow her to become part of the Scoobies back at the Precinct?“

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: and directly refers back to a quote that has Rosalee and Nick discuss how he should become part of Kelly’s and Adalind’s life. I do not understand where you get the impression that he would want her to be part of the Scoobies, unless he wanted her as part of his life because she’s the mother of his child.

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: How would that even work separately? Do you think Adalind would’ve wanted to join the Scoobies if Nick had left her and Kelly in a lurch?

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: And why would he want her to join the Scoobies? How are those two *not* connected? She becomes part of the Scoobies when she and Kelly become part of Nick’s life. Before that point she's helping Nick out in an effort to protect Kelly and herself from Juliette.

(05-01-2018, 08:39 AM)Zansy Wrote: Unless you think Elizabeth Lascelles is part of the Scoobies because she helped to make the potion to get Nick his Grimm back? I do not think that the Scooby decision could’ve possibly been made as early as Iron Hans. And if you weren’t conveniently ignoring the canon quotes I provided, we could now be looking at “Why the hell would I help you?” which Nick says to Adalind in Sean’s office, not long before the hallway incident. And you could explain to me how you see Nick go from that sentiment to “I choose Adalind as part of the Scoobies!” in a matter of what... two minutes? Five, maybe? (Note that we cannot count the way Nick feels when he first feels Kelly kick, because as we have discussed above, he hasn’t made up his mind about being part of Kelly’s life by the beginning of S5. The kicking bit only works as an incentive to have him protect Kelly.) -Please do consider that there are *several* questions in the above. They'd love to be answered.-

(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: And how would he know that that wouldn't instead trigger her to actually do something rash?

Quote:How did Nick know not to draw his gun in this case? How did Nick know that standing in Juliette's way would stop her from getting to Adalind? How did Nick know that he could grab Juliette's arm without her knocking him into the next year? How'd he know he wouldn't need Wu's assistance?

Because as a rule of thumb most people react better if you do not threaten them? Taking her arm is establishing a physical connection between them. That isn't a threat. Drawing a gun would be, as would asking other cops to rush in on the scene to escalate the situation. He is trying not to treat her as a criminal because that's his best hope not to have her react like a criminal.

Quote: Are you talking about when Nick took Juliette's arm?

Quote:Do you honestly require me to say “Juliette’s arm” rather than “her arm” while we are talking about the scene in the hallway and Nick taking Juliette’s arm is the only time anyone takes anyone’s arm in that scene?

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 08:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-29-2018, 11:12 AM)Zansy Wrote: [If he had told Adalind to run... where to?

Wherever he felt she would be safe.

Where? You cannot suggest that Nick is risking Adalind's and baby's safety and not suggest a safer place he could've send her to. Nick doesn't ask Adalind to go elsewhere. And Adalind doesn't try to run anywhere either. So clearly they both assume that where she is is her best bet to get through this situation somehow. If either of them could think of a safer place she could reach I rather doubt Nick would've taken the gamble to keep her where she is, even if it is, as you claim, not a dangerous situation.

Everyone who's posting clearly feels this was a dangerous situation, even with Nick standing by. I haven't read one post from anyone saying the situation was calmed down simply because he was there. Even you. So why is it you feel she's so much safer at Nick's side?

Quote: Did you read what I said? Because I said that from what we see in canon it is the characters who appear to assume that that is the safest place for her, seeing as Nick doesn’t ask Adalind to leave and Adalind doesn’t leave on her own accord. You are the one who suggests that there IS a safer place elsewhere. I don’t know of one. Not because I consider the situation they’re in safe. But because I cannot think of a safer one. While you imply that the fact that Nick doesn’t send her elsewhere implies he doesn’t consider the situation dangerous. So please tell me where she would be safer? I asked a question and I don’t see an answer. If I missed it, please point it out to me.

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote:

(04-30-2018, 10:46 AM)Zansy Wrote: So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down. So he says he won’t give up on trying to find a cure. And when he finds the next best thing, he takes that opportunity. - Tell me how he is choosing Adalind over Juliette? Or what he could’ve said other than “hey I found something you could still try”? He’s tried talking to Juliette about this. You can’t just ignore his earlier attempts to reason with her by this point. But she tells him there’s nothing he can do or say. And he still doesn’t give up. Juliette’s the one who’s had sex with Sean and already started considering to become Kenneth’s ally. So why do you accuse Nick of not trying hard enough to talk to her? - By this point Juliette should be the one doing the talking. Not the accusing. Nick is telling her that he doesn't want her to kill an innocent baby and she's mad at him for "choosing Adalind". Juliette's slept with Sean. (We remember 4.17?) Completely out of her free will, no spells that time. Not that Sleeping Beauty spell that made them fall for each other big time. And not Sean looking like Nick either. But she's the one who's angry at Nick because he won't step aside to let her "rip the little bitch's throat out".

Quote: So when Juliette stated in the spice shop (and I am paraphrasing here) that she liked who she was and Nick replied something to the effect of, "We don't", was that really a show of evidence that he was willing to try and understand Juliette as a hexenbiest?

Either you refused to read the quotes I provided. Or you’re deliberately not understanding what I am talking about. “So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand who she is as a Hexenbiest and she turns him down.” Is what happens in 4.14.

Read this again, please:
Nick: I’m not giving up. We’re gonna get through this.
Juliette: You can’t change it.
Nick: I’m not gonna let it destroy what we have.
Juliette: I see the way you are looking at me. It’s not the same. It’ll never be the same.
Nick: You learned to understand me, now I have to learn how to understand you.
Juliette: Is that forever?
Nick: I’m not going anywhere.
Juliette (woges): Is this what you want to spend the rest of your life with? Is it?
Nick: Why are you doing this?
Juliette: If I’m the girl of your dreams, the least you can do is kiss me. Kiss me. You can’t even look at me. This is what’s forever.
(4.14)

You cannot seriously expect him to try and understand Hexenbiest Juliette by the time she’s smashed Rosalee into the shelves and Monroe to the ground. Because that’s what she does *before* she says that she likes who she is. If he was standing there holding her hand and brewing her tea by that point I’d wonder if someone removed his brain. And Ms. “I like who I am” in 4.20 said “I’m in hell, Nick” in 4.19. So excuse me, while I take her statements as to how she feels with a grain of salt. I almost hope she’s not serious. Because in between those two statements she’s torched the trailer, helped to plan to have her neighbors and Kelly murdered. And smashed the people who used to be her friends around. So that’s making her feel better about herself? And you’re asking Nick to understand that? (Again. Questions here.)

(05-01-2018, 04:06 AM)irukandji Wrote: Where in all of this did he unequivocably state that he would accept Juliette no matter what? And why when she accused him of choosing Adalind over her, didn't he prove to her that she was wrong?

Quote: Why should he promise to accept her *no matter what* (which isn’t what I said he does, in case you were wondering: “So Nick’s telling Juliette that he would be willing to try and understand...” does not include the words “no matter what” anywhere, and it refers to what's happening in 4.14.)? By the hallway scene we are talking about a character who’s about to become accessory to his mother’s and neighbors’ deaths, so any “no matter what” promises would be rather troubling. What we do get is him stating that he isn’t choosing Adalind over her:

Juliette: You’re choosing her over me.
Nick: That’s not what I’m doing.
Juliette: Then get out of my way.
But how should he *prove* that? By getting out of her way after she announced her intention to “rip the little bitch’s throat out”? And claimed that no child of Adalind’s is innocent? (If we continue this, please answer the question how he should prove it in your opinion. Stating that he should isn’t very helpful unless you also explain how. And it shouldn’t include letting her murder Kelly. A reasonable way, please.)

And anyway. WHY would he need to prove that he’s on her side? Again, ‘tis a question! Please do reply to this if you choose to reply. And take the following into account, too, please: She has *left* him in 4.14. She’s moved out in 4.16. She’s had sex with Renard in 4.17. And now she’s standing there telling him that he needs to choose her? She is his *ex* girlfriend. By her choice, not his. Why does she think she’s got a claim on who he can and can’t spend his time with? Even if Nick had decided to be in a relationship with Adalind for Kelly’s sake by this point in canon (which he didn’t, as we have discussed above, re 5.01), that would still not be Juliette’s business, because she is the one who has ended their relationship before any of this took place. She should be taking steps towards him. Not expecting him to take further steps towards her. He’s tried that in the past. And it didn’t work. And still we do get him reach out again when he thinks that they did find something to help her, as he promised he would continue to try for in 4.16:
Nick: Juliette, this is my fault. And if there was anything I could do to change it, I would.
Juliette: I know that.
Nick: I haven’t given up yet.
Juliette: Why not?
Nick: Because I love you.
(4.16)

I still cannot grasp if you think that the hallway scene and the spice shop scene happen in some vacuum where the scenes prior to it somehow haven’t happened. Did Juliette in the canon you watched not break up with Nick and sleep with Sean? If you reply to me again, please do so by providing quotes for what you are saying. I’m growing a little tired of trying to discuss canon if you aren’t doing the same. Otherwise I should find different topics to talk about. Please respect my wishes. Either source what you are saying when we talk about this some more. Or leave it at this. Thank you.