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walking in two worlds now adding Juliette - jsgrimm45 - 07-23-2015
All the main characters in Grimm have to walk in two worlds. Only the police officers not in the know so to speak can walk in just one. With this in mind do we now do we add a philosophical view to the characters? I had not considered this until recently.
I have not read any Grimm fairly tales so maybe I can't make a judgment on the tales, the fairly tales I have read have some moral point to the tale.
Is there a philosophical side to Grimm?
Anyone who has seen the John Wayne movie The Searchers may not know this his friend Harry Carey died just before the start of the film. His wife was the older wife at the house he kept coming back to. If you look at how John Wayne was standing in the door at the end his stance was the way Carey would stand off set. So this had meaning to her. So sometimes in a movie or series unless we are in the know we don't know the whole scene or maybe it's whole meaning. Just a fun fact.
RE: walking in two worlds - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 07-23-2015
This is an interesting question.
I googled about philosophy and I found some interesting information about it.
Quote:Quite literally, the term "philosophy" means, "love of wisdom." In a broad sense, philosophy is an activity people undertake when they seek to understand fundamental truths about themselves, the world in which they live, and their relationships to the world and to each other. As an academic discipline philosophy is much the same. Those who study philosophy are perpetually engaged in asking, answering, and arguing for their answers to life’s most basic questions. To make such a pursuit more systematic academic philosophy is traditionally divided into major areas of study.From: http://philosophy.fsu.edu/content/view/full/36588
Quote:The topics that philosophy addresses fall into several distinct fields. Among those of fundamental concern are:From: http://atlassociety.org/objectivism/atlas-university/what-is-objectivism/objectivism-101-blog/3367-what-is-philosophy
Metaphysics (the theory of reality).
Epistemology (the theory of knowledge)
Ethics (the theory of moral values)
Politics (the theory of legal rights and government)
Aesthetics (the theory of the nature of art)
Quote:EthicsFrom: http://philosophy.fsu.edu/content/view/full/36588
The study of ethics often concerns what we ought to do and what it would be best to do. In struggling with this issue, larger questions about what is good and right arise. So, the ethicist attempts to answer such questions as:
What is good? What makes actions or people good?
What is right? What makes actions right?
Is morality objective or subjective?
How should I treat others?
I would like to mark the world in which they live, and their relationships to the world and to each other. As @jsgrimm45, the main characters in Grimm have to walk in two worlds. In a philosophical way, how are the main characters dealing with those two different worlds?
I would also like to mark that one of the fields of the study of philosophy is Ethics. Under this concept, how are the characters dealing with rules of the different worlds they are dealing with?
RE: walking in two worlds - jsgrimm45 - 07-23-2015
(07-23-2015, 11:02 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: This is an interesting question.Before I can give a good answer to this question I must first explain how I view all TV series or movies. As entertainment only I have no vested interest in any character other than how well I believe the actor or actress plays the role. I may be vested in the series but not the characters. Now for Grimm we are (my option) dealing with philosophical issues each episode so each fan will see that episode colored by their life history. The old saying walk a mile in my shoes before you question how I do things. At 70 I have walked a few miles.
I googled about philosophy and I found some interesting information about it.
Quote:Quite literally, the term "philosophy" means, "love of wisdom." In a broad sense, philosophy is an activity people undertake when they seek to understand fundamental truths about themselves, the world in which they live, and their relationships to the world and to each other. As an academic discipline philosophy is much the same. Those who study philosophy are perpetually engaged in asking, answering, and arguing for their answers to life’s most basic questions. To make such a pursuit more systematic academic philosophy is traditionally divided into major areas of study.From: http://philosophy.fsu.edu/content/view/full/36588
Quote:The topics that philosophy addresses fall into several distinct fields. Among those of fundamental concern are:From: http://atlassociety.org/objectivism/atlas-university/what-is-objectivism/objectivism-101-blog/3367-what-is-philosophy
Metaphysics (the theory of reality).
Epistemology (the theory of knowledge)
Ethics (the theory of moral values)
Politics (the theory of legal rights and government)
Aesthetics (the theory of the nature of art)
Quote:EthicsFrom: http://philosophy.fsu.edu/content/view/full/36588
The study of ethics often concerns what we ought to do and what it would be best to do. In struggling with this issue, larger questions about what is good and right arise. So, the ethicist attempts to answer such questions as:
What is good? What makes actions or people good?
What is right? What makes actions right?
Is morality objective or subjective?
How should I treat others?
I would like to mark the world in which they live, and their relationships to the world and to each other. As @jsgrimm45, the main characters in Grimm have to walk in two worlds. In a philosophical way, how are the main characters dealing with those two different worlds?
I would also like to mark that one of the fields of the study of philosophy is Ethics. Under this concept, how are the characters dealing with rules of the different worlds they are dealing with?
I will only be giving option on moral and by moral I mean right not legal hope some will give theirs on legal as I can see their point also. As Gemini we can see both sides.I will take the easy ones first:
Bud and or all eisbiber's moral will always do the right thing even in the one episode about being a witness they did the right thing. No philosophical question for them.
Monroe more complex his character from what he has said has had a checked past works at staying moral now has taken and is holding a moral course. Using philosophical question will Nick cause him to push those limits? I apply the same general points to Rosalee. Nick has change Monroe the character. Nick causing a change in the first episode Monroe was a loner working with Nick took him out of that world for good or bad. Others will point to Hank and Wu and I could agree.
Renard the most complex character in the series for some he will be amoral and I agree but I see his character moving to moral. The philosophical question for me will he stay the course or not?
Adalind complex mainly because she has always acted amoral until the last few episodes in season 4. The philosophical question for her: is this because she had an amoral mother and was used by amoral people is her real character moral? Can this character change like Monroe?
Hank and Wu only walk in two worlds because of Nick. The philosophical question applied to them is do they truly understand the world they are walking in? So can we say moral or not yet?
Nick and Trubel Grimm's moral but only by Grimm standards. The philosophical question for them is how far will they go?
For other characters on the show would take to much time and space to apply this to all. From my point of view moral is good an right thing to do. I'm not nmaking any legal points for the series.
RE: walking in two worlds - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 07-24-2015
The royals have no moral. They just see their own interests. The hexanbiests are like the royals. So, Sean, Adelaind, the royals… I see that they simply don’t care how their decisions affect the others. Maybe Adelaind changes because of the Childs.
If you consider the wesen (Monroe, Rosalee, Bud…) they can live their lifes hided in the middle of the society as many of them does.
If you consider the humans (Hunk, Wu, …) they don’t have necessarily to know or to consider the wesen world in their decisions.
I think the most complex characters are the grimm.
The friendship of a grimm can change all condition of a person’s life. Consider Monroe and Hank for example. If they have to make choices that have consequences in both worlds this happens because of Nick.
The grimms have no choice because they have responsibilities in the wesen world and they can’t hide because the wesen can recognize they are grimm. Nick has responsibilities also as police officer. Nick choices will always have consequences in both worlds, for the bad or for the good.
So Nick is the one who has to take the hardest decisions. If I have to judge Nicks intention, I tend to consider him a good man. But if I have to judge the effects of his decisions, he had took some bad decisions in the show if we consider the result of his actions over others peoples life.
I think that Nick never gave Juliette the full picture of what would mean live with a grimm. Maybe, Nick himself never had this idea since apparently Aunt Marie hided the grimm life from him very well.
I think this thread can follow two directions: analyse each character based in their intentions or analyse each character based in the result of their decisions.
RE: walking in two worlds - eric - 07-24-2015
As has been shown several times in this show, you can change what you do and why you do it, and that choice to grow determines if you are moral. Monroe is a good example of that. He used to go on "hunts" and live the Blutbad way. He changed his ways and is a very standup guy. Same for Rosalee, who changed her ways and is not close to how she or her brother were. Nick has tried to keep himself moral in spite of things that push to the dark side. He still tries to bring people to justice when he can. Juliette was a good person overwhelmed by a sudden changes she did not control. She became a hexenbiest after trying to help her friends. She might have gotten it under control, but we will never know. Hank and Wu were exposed to a world they never knew existed, and are trying to do the right thing. Adeline seems to be work in progress, we should know more about her choices in Season 5. Renard, well I am not sure but I don't hold out much home for him. Truble has just discovered that "Grimm" means something besides "a word they say before they try to kill me". I hold out hope for her.
RE: walking in two worlds now adding Juliette - jsgrimm45 - 07-25-2015
As I said in the post on trust when I rated them I didn't not use Juliette as she may no longer be in the series. Eric adding Juliette was a good point. After thought she may even have bigger role in the cause and effect on all the characters I did rate in this thread.
Philosophical look at Juliette and how her change effects all the main character. Again will only use moral as right not legal in her case not much to the legal side that I can see (someone may).
Never was explained how she became a hexenbeist so for this point only I will explain it (feel free to disagree). Somewhere in Juliette family tree was a hexenbeist (looks like gene's make a wesen or a Grimm). When she became Adalind the change was more than skin deep it turned on the hexenbeist gene. We seen the change was slow moving as the body replaced cells every day took time for the hexen gene to take over.
Up to this change Juliette had no philosophical question plain moral. Eric post took me back to bigfoot episode. Juliette never until that episode looked to be a farm animal vet looked like her main focus was pets? That was the first episode where she starts to wonder about what we know as the wesen world. This episode was a vehicle for her to start to see that world. Remember the lab work.
After becoming Adalind the philosophical profile starts to change. She is moving form moral to amoral slow at first but them the changes speeds up.
Now for the question how does this philosophical change effect all the main character? Looking the spice shop scene we could say they all hated her but I have been thinking no that was said in the heat of what just happen. Applying that standard will (assuming Juliette is dead) the main characters regret they didn't do more? Thinking about her death may even be the cause of Rosalee (been put out) falling back into drugs using that as one possible change. Her and Rosalee always looked to good friends. We might add Adalind to this also her regret may change her.
After Eric's post for me the Juliette character change is the most stark from Moral to Amoral. Now if I read more into Eric's ideas sorry but his post did cause some thoughts. So thanks Eric.
RE: walking in two worlds - irukandji - 07-25-2015
I would like to point out some things that might have a bearing on this discussion.
Take Adalind's baby. The philosophy of science could be used to discuss what physical properties the baby might possess as the result of a hexenbiest, zauerbiest, royal, and magic union. Would the baby be 50% wesen, 25% human, and 25% royal? Maybe, maybe not. What would the baby's genetic code look like?
The baby's magic abilities affect physical laws. Later, as Diana, she's still able to change physical laws. Would that increase, decrease, or stay the same as she ages? Psychology is another philosophy. As far as I know, Diana has never spoken. Is the lack of vocal communication a psychological problem? If so, what other psychological issues might she reveal to us?
The point I was trying to make after blabbering on is that there is no one character that walks a single or even a tandem philosophical path. They all walk many, just like all of us. I don't think philosophies like ethics and moralities can be discussed without bumping into other philosophies like the science philosophies, for example.
So yes, there is a philosophical side to Grimm. Snaps for the excellent topic, by the way.
RE: walking in two worlds now adding Juliette - New Guy - 07-25-2015
(07-25-2015, 07:37 AM)irukandji Wrote: I would like to point out some things that might have a bearing on this discussion.Hi Irukandji,
Take Adalind's baby. The philosophy of science could be used to discuss what physical properties the baby might possess as the result of a hexenbiest, zauerbiest, royal, and magic union. Would the baby be 50% wesen, 25% human, and 25% royal? Maybe, maybe not. What would the baby's genetic code look like?
The baby's magic abilities affect physical laws. Later, as Diana, she's still able to change physical laws. Would that increase, decrease, or stay the same as she ages? Psychology is another philosophy. As far as I know, Diana has never spoken. Is the lack of vocal communication a psychological problem? If so, what other psychological issues might she reveal to us?
The point I was trying to make after blabbering on is that there is no one character that walks a single or even a tandem philosophical path. They all walk many, just like all of us. I don't think philosophies like ethics and moralities can be discussed without bumping into other philosophies like the science philosophies, for example.
So yes, there is a philosophical side to Grimm. Snaps for the excellent topic, by the way.
I seem to recall during the car ride from the slaughter at Nicks house to the Royal's compound that Diana asked Juliette "where's my mommy?"
Would (will) Diana recognize Adalind as her mommy? Would she recognize Renard as her daddy? What will she think of Nick when her half brother arrives?
There is some fun speculation on the "Dear Abby" thread.
New Guy
RE: walking in two worlds now adding Juliette - irukandji - 07-25-2015
(07-25-2015, 09:31 AM)New Guy Wrote:(07-25-2015, 07:37 AM)irukandji Wrote: I would like to point out some things that might have a bearing on this discussion.Hi Irukandji,
Take Adalind's baby. The philosophy of science could be used to discuss what physical properties the baby might possess as the result of a hexenbiest, zauerbiest, royal, and magic union. Would the baby be 50% wesen, 25% human, and 25% royal? Maybe, maybe not. What would the baby's genetic code look like?
The baby's magic abilities affect physical laws. Later, as Diana, she's still able to change physical laws. Would that increase, decrease, or stay the same as she ages? Psychology is another philosophy. As far as I know, Diana has never spoken. Is the lack of vocal communication a psychological problem? If so, what other psychological issues might she reveal to us?
The point I was trying to make after blabbering on is that there is no one character that walks a single or even a tandem philosophical path. They all walk many, just like all of us. I don't think philosophies like ethics and moralities can be discussed without bumping into other philosophies like the science philosophies, for example.
So yes, there is a philosophical side to Grimm. Snaps for the excellent topic, by the way.
I seem to recall during the car ride from the slaughter at Nicks house to the Royal's compound that Diana asked Juliette "where's my mommy?"
Would (will) Diana recognize Adalind as her mommy? Would she recognize Renard as her daddy? What will she think of Nick when her half brother arrives?
There is some fun speculation on the "Dear Abby" thread.
New Guy
Yep, she did. I stand corrected. I am changing my sentence from 'As far as I know, Diana has never spoken' to 'She rarely speaks'.
None of this really changes my question pertaining to the lack of vocalization as a possible psychological problem. If a person wanted to apply the science philosophies, that is. Back to the discussion.
RE: walking in two worlds now adding Juliette - eric - 07-25-2015
I think that Juliette did not have enough time to deal with her condition to determine if she would moral or immoral. I estimate the time between taking the potion(to help her friends) and her untimely passing was about 2-3 weeks in her real time. After she first voged she called Nick saying they needed to talk, she was cut off because of Monroe's abduction. She asked Renard and Henrietta for help her get back to "normal". She was told she was stuck and just accept being an ugly a** witch. When she wanted to talk with Nick a second time he told her the world would be better off with one less hexenbiest--a bad way to start a discussion with the one you share a bed. Monroe and Rosealle, who she had just saved from death, couldn't even offer any sympathy. My own experience with sudden tragedy is that it takes a while to figure out which way you will go. That said, it is a fantasy and the story teller controls the ending.