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+--- Thread: Grimm view world (/Thread-Grimm-view-world)
RE: Grimm view world - eric - 07-11-2017
More than once Nick is told to "quit being a cop and be a Grimm". The wessen know that some wessen crimes cannot be resolved by human law. The Portland wessen have learned that Nick is not the Grimm they were warned about as children, he doesn't kill every wessen he sees, only those who commit capital crimes and cannot be dealt with any other way. I may just be suffering from old timers disease, but I don't remember any wessen who could be convicted by human law that Nick just killed to keep his skills up. Ken could not be convicted because what would be a believable motive for some European coming to Portland to wipe out a bunch of neighbors and cutting off some woman's head? A serial killer of women found dead in a warehouse dealt with by a bunch of vigelantes-okay, that would do. This is not a story about normal life but a hidden life that no normal human would believe-Josh for example.
RE: Grimm view world - Hell Rell - 07-11-2017
I never fell on the side of Nick being corrupt. He has to make decisions that normal laws just aren't equipped for.
This was best summed up by Hank early in season 5. As one of the few humans in the know, he expressed his frustration at knowing what was really going on but being unable to do anything about it. Hank knew those other cops were way in over their heads and they needed Nick to help out. He recognizes the need for someone like Nick. It's not out of hero worship but necessity.
RE: Grimm view world - dicappatore - 07-11-2017
(07-11-2017, 08:56 AM)Hell Rell Wrote:(07-11-2017, 04:11 AM)irukandji Wrote: By the way, for those who don't know, Law and Order is just as much of a fantasy as Grimm is.
And as always, this is all just my opinion.
I didn't like the Law & Order line myself. I was thinking the exact same thing.
A Grimm being judge, jury, and executioner can be better understood if the guy Nick kills isn't already in police custody. Kenneth may get out because of his connections but he's not a wesen that can simply overpower the cops. That's the one obvious instance where Nick was in the wrong despite having very understandable reasons. It may have made for a good season finale battle but that was clearly an abuse of power that I can't debate even though I don't fall on the side of Nick being a corrupt cop.
The reasons why I mentioned the shows “Law and Order” is due to its mostly based on real crime stories not only committed in NYC but also around the USA and some even go as far as worldwide.
The writes do their homework and probably consult with a bunch of cops, ex-cops, lawyers and prosecutors. Even the episodes with subject matters concerning corrupt cops are part of it.
But if some posters are going to compare a SIFI, Fantasy, Fairies Tale show like Grimm to a pure Drama show such as “Law and Order” what can I say?
RE: Grimm view world - irukandji - 07-11-2017
(07-11-2017, 08:56 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: I didn't like the Law & Order line myself. I was thinking the exact same thing.
I've watched one episode and never got any further into it. For the life of me, I can't understand why some posters would use that as an argument. I know the show has won countless awards, but that doesn't make it the end all for police procedure, and for that matter, even court/jury procedures. The last time I got called to jury duty, the defending attorney stated right off that real jury trials are not like Law and Order. Law and Order is a fantasy. Who wouldn't know that?
(07-11-2017, 08:56 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: A Grimm being judge, jury, and executioner can be better understood if the guy Nick kills isn't already in police custody. Kenneth may get out because of his connections but he's not a wesen that can simply overpower the cops. That's the one obvious instance where Nick was in the wrong despite having very understandable reasons. It may have made for a good season finale battle but that was clearly an abuse of power that I can't debate even though I don't fall on the side of Nick being a corrupt cop.
The apprehension and deliberate murder of a prisoner is probably the worst abuse of power a cop could wield. Nick used his law enforcement authority to entrap and murder a person taken into police custody. That's on the law enforcement side.
On the grimm side, Kenneth was murdered because Nick's mom, who was a grimm, was murdered. Not only that she was decapitated, which is a clear statement to any grimm. His revenge, as a grimm, is understandable.
Nick's very presence, notably his eye, have a distinct effect on many different wesen. The effect is not beneficial, and in a lot of cases, not all, the situation escalates to the point where Nick has no alternative but to shoot to kill.
On the other hand, we know his peers, fully human, are bringing wesen in alive. There might be a point where deadly force had to be used, but since the series focused around Nick, it's more than likely a rarity rather than the norm.
Nick's presence and his brand of justice doesn't fit in with the Portland PD. I don't think it's really enough to have Renard's backing. Should Nick go above and beyond to make other officers aware of wesen or should he just quit the force?
RE: Grimm view world - Devegs - 07-12-2017
Nick did straddle the line as a cop while living the grimm life in grimmiverse. However, he knew and could see things that regular folks would never know or see. In addition to the regular world, there was the wesen world that most humans were not allowed into due to wesen code. For that, IMO, he does get a pass. Some wesen cases had to be resolved differently.
Kenneth was an exception, even though there was justification. Kenneth was scum like the rest of the royals. He probably would have escaped justice but his death was more of Nick settling a personal score. Nick had blood on his hands for that. I appreciated the fact that the writers had Renard ask Nick "Do you want to count bodies?", when Nick angrily confronted Renard about BC and Meisner's death.
RE: Grimm view world - dicappatore - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 03:12 AM)Devegs Wrote: Nick did straddle the line as a cop while living the grimm life in grimmiverse. However, he knew and could see things that regular folks would never know or see. In addition to the regular world, there was the wesen world that most humans were not allowed into due to wesen code. For that, IMO, he does get a pass. Some wesen cases had to be resolved differently.
Kenneth was an exception, even though there was justification. Kenneth was scum like the rest of the royals. He probably would have escaped justice but his death was more of Nick settling a personal score. Nick had blood on his hands for that. I appreciated the fact that the writers had Renard ask Nick "Do you want to count bodies?", when Nick angrily confronted Renard about BC and Meisner's death.
If we are going to attach the word “corrupt” to Nick. A few other characters would line up with the tag before Nick. Sean and Juliette/Eve would be two of them.
RE: Grimm view world - jsgrimm45 - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 05:18 AM)dicappatore Wrote:We know Nck is a Grimm so he has this different view of the world. The word corrupt is used only because Nick a police officer and those who see Grimm a a law and order series are the ones who must use this term.(07-12-2017, 03:12 AM)Devegs Wrote: Nick did straddle the line as a cop while living the grimm life in grimmiverse. However, he knew and could see things that regular folks would never know or see. In addition to the regular world, there was the wesen world that most humans were not allowed into due to wesen code. For that, IMO, he does get a pass. Some wesen cases had to be resolved differently.
Kenneth was an exception, even though there was justification. Kenneth was scum like the rest of the royals. He probably would have escaped justice but his death was more of Nick settling a personal score. Nick had blood on his hands for that. I appreciated the fact that the writers had Renard ask Nick "Do you want to count bodies?", when Nick angrily confronted Renard about BC and Meisner's death.
If we are going to attach the word “corrupt” to Nick. A few other characters would line up with the tag before Nick. Sean and Juliette/Eve would be two of them.
So if he wasn't a police officer no problem he could kill all the weseen he wanted. So as a question take NIck's mom Kelly the first time she seen Monroe and Rosalee if he hadn't been there would she have killed them? IMO yes you may have a different view but I think she would have kill both of them.
No one ever posts how often Nick worked the case to help wesen like Hank's friend, the other cases like the lake monster I'd ask them how would a normal police officer handle a case like that?
We also have to add this to the question every wesen who see a Grimm goes into attack mode, that isn't Nick problem, but if he is attacked doesn't he have the right to defend himself?
Krampus is a good point Nick didn't kill him or even charge him, because he didn't know he was Krampus. Now ask how many children did Krampus kill over the years, he even said he woke up and sometime there was blood. Nick turn this one over the Council. In Natural Born Wesen Nick caught them and the Council had them killed.
So we have to look at the label "corrupt". The reason the writers made Nick a police officer was to put him where he could work cases and know the unknown. So should we look at the cases 1 where they attacked Nick/Hank/Wu and 2 were nothing could be proved on the one who had done the crime? Using 2 we see Nick like Krampus do the right thing for the wesen.
RE: Grimm view world - Devegs - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 05:18 AM)dicappatore Wrote:(07-12-2017, 03:12 AM)Devegs Wrote: Nick did straddle the line as a cop while living the grimm life in grimmiverse. However, he knew and could see things that regular folks would never know or see. In addition to the regular world, there was the wesen world that most humans were not allowed into due to wesen code. For that, IMO, he does get a pass. Some wesen cases had to be resolved differently.
Kenneth was an exception, even though there was justification. Kenneth was scum like the rest of the royals. He probably would have escaped justice but his death was more of Nick settling a personal score. Nick had blood on his hands for that. I appreciated the fact that the writers had Renard ask Nick "Do you want to count bodies?", when Nick angrily confronted Renard about BC and Meisner's death.
If we are going to attach the word “corrupt” to Nick. A few other characters would line up with the tag before Nick. Sean and Juliette/Eve would be two of them.
Agreed. If we want to be hard lined for the sake of it, we can call Nick corrupt. However, as some of you explained and IMO, the word cannot accurately describe Nick or be applied in the sense that was being discussed.
RE: Grimm view world - Hell Rell - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 06:23 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote:(07-12-2017, 05:18 AM)dicappatore Wrote:We know Nck is a Grimm so he has this different view of the world. The word corrupt is used only because Nick a police officer and those who see Grimm a a law and order series are the ones who must use this term.(07-12-2017, 03:12 AM)Devegs Wrote: Nick did straddle the line as a cop while living the grimm life in grimmiverse. However, he knew and could see things that regular folks would never know or see. In addition to the regular world, there was the wesen world that most humans were not allowed into due to wesen code. For that, IMO, he does get a pass. Some wesen cases had to be resolved differently.
Kenneth was an exception, even though there was justification. Kenneth was scum like the rest of the royals. He probably would have escaped justice but his death was more of Nick settling a personal score. Nick had blood on his hands for that. I appreciated the fact that the writers had Renard ask Nick "Do you want to count bodies?", when Nick angrily confronted Renard about BC and Meisner's death.
If we are going to attach the word “corrupt” to Nick. A few other characters would line up with the tag before Nick. Sean and Juliette/Eve would be two of them.
So if he wasn't a police officer no problem he could kill all the weseen he wanted. So as a question take NIck's mom Kelly the first time she seen Monroe and Rosalee if he hadn't been there would she have killed them? IMO yes you may have a different view but I think she would have kill both of them.
No one ever posts how often Nick worked the case to help wesen like Hank's friend, the other cases like the lake monster I'd ask them how would a normal police officer handle a case like that?
We also have to add this to the question every wesen who see a Grimm goes into attack mode, that isn't Nick problem, but if he is attacked doesn't he have the right to defend himself?
Krampus is a good point Nick didn't kill him or even charge him, because he didn't know he was Krampus. Now ask how many children did Krampus kill over the years, he even said he woke up and sometime there was blood. Nick turn this one over the Council. In Natural Born Wesen Nick caught them and the Council had them killed.
So we have to look at the label "corrupt". The reason the writers made Nick a police officer was to put him where he could work cases and know the unknown. So should we look at the cases 1 where they attacked Nick/Hank/Wu and 2 were nothing could be proved on the one who had done the crime? Using 2 we see Nick like Krampus do the right thing for the wesen.
I agree with all of this here. That's why I couldn't label Nick as corrupt outside of dealing with Kenneth.
There was this picture being painted that Nick kills wesen while ignoring his duties as a cop but you mentioned the times where he used his better judgment to let some of them go free even though normal cops would've arrested them. He had to make decisions like this constantly and I'm glad he let the doctor who was helping old and sick wesen end their lives peacefully rather than arrest him. Nick saw the good in what he was doing instead of just labeling him a monster where a normal cop may have just thrown the book at him.
Nick knows things most people don't and it's been expressed by his friends and several other wesen that he'd better not reveal what he knows. The world isn't ready to handle it so he has even more responsibility beyond being a cop. Nick going by the books wouldn't be considered justice. Doing so would tell me he has less of a conscience rather than more of one.
RE: Grimm view world - irukandji - 07-12-2017
(07-12-2017, 06:23 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: No one ever posts how often Nick worked the case to help wesen like Hank's friend, the other cases like the lake monster I'd ask them how would a normal police officer handle a case like that?
I for one do not believe Nick is the only possible police officer called to wesen related crimes. In order for Nick (and only Nick) to be dispatched to a wesen related crime, someone has to know a wesen committed the crime in the first place. Someone else has to dispatch Nick and Hank to the crime scene. That means besides Renard, Hank, and Wu, there has to have been at least two other people on the Portland PD who suspect something different is afoot, and so tell Renard that the case should be assigned to 'the grimm'. It's not possible. Not with the big secret grimm society we as the viewer are supposed to believe exists.
As for the lake monster, who says a regular human officer can't be assigned to the case? Portland PD has only one grimm and many many human police as well as wesen police. All of them would function just as effectively as Nick. They'd do exactly the same investigation as Nick. While they may not see the wesen, at the same time their presence would not cause the wesen to go into the ridiculous invisible woge either. Wesen leave DNA behind just like anyone else. All the officer has to do is take the perpetrator into custody and let the law deal with the oddities of the case.
(07-12-2017, 06:23 AM)jsgrimm45 Wrote: We also have to add this to the question every wesen who see a Grimm goes into attack mode, that isn't Nick problem, but if he is attacked doesn't he have the right to defend himself?
No one's questioning Nick's right to defend himself, I'm just questioning the methods used to escalate the situation. It is Nick's problem because it's his fault the situation has escalated to the point where someone has to die. A good policeman who has a conscience and who suddenly discovers not only that he's a grimm, but that his very presence often causes a human death would naturally question whether his position on the force is a benefit or a hazard to humans. But it doesn't only come down to that. Nick, as the "new grimm", should be looking outside the box. If he wants to stay on the force, he should be looking at ways he can be less of a hazard to wesen.
Instead, he never gives that a thought. He just looks as himself as a grimm. He does what he wants and tough toenails if anyone doesn't like it. In many ways, his devil may care attitude doesn't make him any different from Marie or Kelly or any of the other grimms.
While that's great for the grimm species, it makes Nick a poor and often corrupt cop, in my opinion.