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+--- Thread: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? (/Thread-Is-Juliette-s-demise-the-kiss-of-death-for-Grimm)
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - New Guy - 06-19-2015
Hi Grimm Fans,
Q - Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm?
A – No. NBC renewed Grimm for a 5th season. The show will go on.
The issue isn’t about Juliette. It is about good and evil. Most people prefer entertainment where good triumphs over evil and justice prevails. Checkout Gunsmoke’s statistics of 635 episodes in 20 seasons. Nick is a lawman and like Marshal Matt Dillon he protects the citizens of Portland from villains. Marshal Dillon’s relationship with Miss Kitty was special and discreet. They were loyal to each other through 20 seasons, however Kitty’s implied profession precluded marriage.
Nick and Juliette also had a very special relationship. They seemed to have genuine love and Nick proposed marriage to her. She spurned his proposal due to his desire to conceal his Grimm trait and protect her from the attendant danger. Misfortune came upon them causing drastic changes to both of them. Most evident was Juliette’s change from Nick’s loyal, loving future bride to a deceitful, hostile, violent, and debauched hexenbiest. Her bloodlust and trail of murders made her the top villain not only for Nick but all of Portland.
Juliette’s death was a tragic necessity for Nick and Season 5 to survive. It is classic triumph of good over evil. Her demise should breathe new life into Season 5.
We are not Juliette haters, we are Grimm Fans. I enjoy the Grimm show and the debates here on the Forum. Season 5 should be a doozy!
New Guy
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - irukandji - 06-19-2015
(06-19-2015, 03:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: Juliette’s death was a tragic necessity for Nick and Season 5 to survive. It is classic triumph of good over evil. Her demise should breathe new life into Season 5.
New Guy
That's not what the writers have recently come out with. Now they're posing the question, 'will Nick forgive Trubel for killing Juliette?' The only thing I can figure from that is he didn't want her dead and he's going to be furious with Trubel for offing her.
But that aside, Juliette's demise has not breathed new life into Grimm. The season finale ratings show that. It could very well be as Adriano said. The writers kowtowed to the Juliette dislike/hate ship, hoping it would pay off in high ratings. Unfortunately it didn't.
Juliette's death was not a tragic necessity. It wasn't even a necessity. The writers could have done much more with her character than having her killed off, by of all people, Trubel.
I didn't watch season 4 for the sake of Grimm. I watched it because Juliette changed into a hexenbiest in season 3 and I thought that was going to make for a terrific fourth season. Every week I kept hoping for things to really heat up between her and Nick. I'm not going to say there weren't interesting stories on Grimm, but they paled in comparison to what I thought might happen (but didn't) between those two.
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - izzy - 06-20-2015
(06-19-2015, 03:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: however Kitty’s implied profession precluded marriage.
Nope,not even close. On the radio show, it was strongly implied Kitty was a prostitute, which is very different from a saloon girl. On the television show, there is only one episode in the first season where you could draw that conclusion, and that is where she is seen walking down the stairs with a man into the saloon.
Later on, Kitty is portrayed as part owner of the LongBranch and eventually the sole owner of the LongBranch. The writers discussed this several times and felt there were too many potential problems with the Marshall getting married related to the fans of the show, similar to what the writers of Grimm may have encountered; fans who would desert the show if they made a major change to the formula.
So the issue was simply one of the writers not wanting to face Matt's fawning fans and also the change in direction.
Gunsmoke actually touched on the issue of fallen women in several episodes and it is very clear Kity was not one of them. She simply operated a higher end saloon and the Marshall provided protection to the LongBranch because she only had a house edge in the gambling and the Faro game was straight. IN other words men coming in on the stage to conduct business were directed to the LongBranch for entertainment as it was the saloon for reputable men. On the flip side the LongBranch did not cut its whiskey, did not rob its customers or cheat at the gambling tables. (it is a misnomer that Poker was frequently played, Faro was the game of choice in gambling houses. Part of the misnomer comes from the famous demise of Buffalo Bill, because he did die in a game of poker, but that was not as common as often portrayed in westerns - Faro was the game).
The reality is many Sheriffs and Marshall had girlfriends who had been prostitutes, it was not a big deal. In fact many sheriffs had been on the other side of the badge at some point in their life.
Anyways...back to Grimm...
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - New Guy - 06-20-2015
(06-19-2015, 03:48 PM)irukandji Wrote:(06-19-2015, 03:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: Juliette’s death was a tragic necessity for Nick and Season 5 to survive. It is classic triumph of good over evil. Her demise should breathe new life into Season 5.
New Guy
That's not what the writers have recently come out with. Now they're posing the question, 'will Nick forgive Trubel for killing Juliette?' The only thing I can figure from that is he didn't want her dead and he's going to be furious with Trubel for offing her.
But that aside, Juliette's demise has not breathed new life into Grimm. The season finale ratings show that. It could very well be as Adriano said. The writers kowtowed to the Juliette dislike/hate ship, hoping it would pay off in high ratings. Unfortunately it didn't.
Juliette's death was not a tragic necessity. It wasn't even a necessity. The writers could have done much more with her character than having her killed off, by of all people, Trubel.
I didn't watch season 4 for the sake of Grimm. I watched it because Juliette changed into a hexenbiest in season 3 and I thought that was going to make for a terrific fourth season. Every week I kept hoping for things to really heat up between her and Nick. I'm not going to say there weren't interesting stories on Grimm, but they paled in comparison to what I thought might happen (but didn't) between those two.
Hi Irukandji:
The question “will Nick forgive Trubel for killing Juliette?” was posed to the writers, not from them. I found this at crossmap.com:
Even though Trubel killed his girlfriend, Grimm Executive Producer David Greenwalt thinks that Nick will eventually forgive Trubel for what she's done, stating, "Well, Trubel did what she had to do. What was the choice? Let Juliette kill Nick?"
Grimm Showrunner Jim Kouf felt the same way, stating, "And hold that against her? No. That's my personal feeling: He's gotta know, being a Grimm, that she had no choice if he were to survive."
Viewer ratings to measure the effect of Juliette’s demise (death) will not be available until after 5.1 airs in October. With Juliette dead maybe former viewers will have no interest in Nick, Chavez, Trubel, Renard, Monroe, Rosalee, Meisner, Adalind or any of the characters or plots. I remain a fan and will watch the show.
Juliette’s downfall was tragic. It certainly was not satire comedy or farce. From the cat scratch through her death there was much tragedy, very little joy and no hope. She didn’t ask for the problems, but handled them poorly. Her death was necessary unless you prefer Nick to die.
Things did heat up for Nick and Juliette the hexenbiest. She tried to kill him. That is rather hot.
New Guy
(06-20-2015, 02:08 AM)izzy Wrote:(06-19-2015, 03:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: however Kitty’s implied profession precluded marriage.
Nope,not even close. On the radio show, it was strongly implied Kitty was a prostitute, which is very different from a saloon girl. On the television show, there is only one episode in the first season where you could draw that conclusion, and that is where she is seen walking down the stairs with a man into the saloon.
Later on, Kitty is portrayed as part owner of the LongBranch and eventually the sole owner of the LongBranch. The writers discussed this several times and felt there were too many potential problems with the Marshall getting married related to the fans of the show, similar to what the writers of Grimm may have encountered; fans who would desert the show if they made a major change to the formula.
So the issue was simply one of the writers not wanting to face Matt's fawning fans and also the change in direction.
Gunsmoke actually touched on the issue of fallen women in several episodes and it is very clear Kity was not one of them. She simply operated a higher end saloon and the Marshall provided protection to the LongBranch because she only had a house edge in the gambling and the Faro game was straight. IN other words men coming in on the stage to conduct business were directed to the LongBranch for entertainment as it was the saloon for reputable men. On the flip side the LongBranch did not cut its whiskey, did not rob its customers or cheat at the gambling tables. (it is a misnomer that Poker was frequently played, Faro was the game of choice in gambling houses. Part of the misnomer comes from the famous demise of Buffalo Bill, because he did die in a game of poker, but that was not as common as often portrayed in westerns - Faro was the game).
The reality is many Sheriffs and Marshall had girlfriends who had been prostitutes, it was not a big deal. In fact many sheriffs had been on the other side of the badge at some point in their life.
Anyways...back to Grimm...
Hi Izzy:
Gunsmoke is a bit off topic, so forgive me. I mention it due to the 20 season run that remains a record. I got my information from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunsmoke
Therein I read these:
Miss Kitty
Georgia Ellis appeared in the first episode "Billy the Kid" (April 26, 1952) as "Francie Richards", a former girlfriend of Matt Dillon and the widow of a criminal. "Miss Kitty" did not appear on the radio series until the May 10, 1952, episode "Jaliscoe". Kitty's profession was hinted at, but never explicit; in a 1953 interview with Time, Macdonnell declared, "Kitty is just someone Matt has to visit every once in a while. We never say it, but Kitty is a prostitute, plain and simple."[7] An out-take from the program makes this hilariously obvious.[8] The television show first portrayed Kitty as a saloon employee (dance-hall girl/prostitute) then later as the owner of the Long Branch Saloon. Sometime in 1959, Ellis was billed as Georgia Hawkins instead of Georgia Ellis.
…
In a July 2, 2002, Associated Press interview with Bob Thomas, Arness explained, "If they were man and wife, it would make a lot of difference. The people upstairs decided it was better to leave the show as it was, which I totally agreed with."
New Guy
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - irukandji - 06-20-2015
(06-20-2015, 12:06 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji:
The question “will Nick forgive Trubel for killing Juliette?” was posed to the writers, not from them. I found this at crossmap.com:
Even though Trubel killed his girlfriend, Grimm Executive Producer David Greenwalt thinks that Nick will eventually forgive Trubel for what she's done, stating, "Well, Trubel did what she had to do. What was the choice? Let Juliette kill Nick?"
Grimm Showrunner Jim Kouf felt the same way, stating, "And hold that against her? No. That's my personal feeling: He's gotta know, being a Grimm, that she had no choice if he were to survive."
That is correct, the writers did not pose the question. However, the writers are apparently taking the position that Nick views Trubel as guilty for killing Juliette. Otherwise, they'd be answering the question differently.
(06-20-2015, 12:06 PM)New Guy Wrote: Viewer ratings to measure the effect of Juliette’s demise (death) will not be available until after 5.1 airs in October. With Juliette dead maybe former viewers will have no interest in Nick, Chavez, Trubel, Renard, Monroe, Rosalee, Meisner, Adalind or any of the characters or plots. I remain a fan and will watch the show.
But that's not what I'm saying New Guy. I'm saying that ratings for the last season episode should have gone through the roof, if the writers were catering to the hate Juliette/dislike Juliette ship.
(06-20-2015, 12:06 PM)New Guy Wrote: Juliette’s downfall was tragic. It certainly was not satire comedy or farce. From the cat scratch through her death there was much tragedy, very little joy and no hope. She didn’t ask for the problems, but handled them poorly. Her death was necessary unless you prefer Nick to die.
It wasn't tragic at all because she didn't view herself as tragic and neither did Nick or the Scooby gang. Nick wanted vengeance and Trubel gave it to him. There was no need for Juliette to die. She could have simply left on the helicopter.
(06-20-2015, 12:06 PM)New Guy Wrote: Things did heat up for Nick and Juliette the hexenbiest. She tried to kill him. That is rather hot.
For a guy. For a female......meh.
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - Hexenadler - 06-21-2015
(06-19-2015, 03:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: Q - Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm?
A – No. NBC renewed Grimm for a 5th season. The show will go on.
Sure, but for how long? Does anyone else here remember the Sci-Fi channel original series SLIDERS? Technically, that show continued even after losing most of its principal cast, but the quality plummeted to such depths it almost became a sick parody of its former self.
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - irukandji - 06-21-2015
I think what's really tragic in all of this is that Nick probably will not be seeking vengeance for Juliette's death.
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - wfmyers1207 - 06-21-2015
(06-21-2015, 08:38 AM)irukandji Wrote: I think what's really tragic in all of this is that Nick probably will not be seeking vengeance for Juliette's death.
Of course he won't seek revenge. If anything he'll buy Truble a beer for offing the whiny batch!
And the ratings are probably going to go up next season! 
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - irukandji - 06-21-2015
(06-21-2015, 10:46 AM)wfmyers1207 Wrote: Of course he won't seek revenge. If anything he'll buy Truble a beer for offing the whiny batch!
Well, he never was much for being fair....or affectionate or honest.....or caring.....or compassionate when it came to Juliette.
The ratings could very well go up the first episode. People are curious to see what's going to happen with Juliette. If they keep her dead, I doubt the ratings will stay up. This whole going darker thing didn't work too well in the fourth season. I can't see it working any better in the fifth season.
RE: Is Juliette's demise the kiss of death for Grimm? - AddictedtoGrimm - 06-21-2015
It is weird that juliette died i will say that because she was on the show from the very beginning but modern shows typically go in that direction of killing off main characters. as far as Nick hating Truble, I dont see that. he likes her a lot, she has gotten him out of every jam he has been in the past season and I cant see him being mad at her long.