06-26-2015, 06:58 AM
It was not my intent to derail the Marie versus Kelly thread, so I cut the recent posts and put them over here. I thought this would make an interesting discussion on its own merit. For the purposes of this thread, you may throw in other characters' perceptions and tactics as
the characters have an impact on one another
Samsarilian wrote:
I would disagree. This was Juliettes fail in the definition of the test. Not being able to kiss a rotting corpse is a common reaction among all humans. Humanity as a whole sees death and disease as going hand in hand and are repulsed by it, this occurs at the sub conscious if not instinctive level. If she was testing him this was the wrong test to chose. He showed he was still willing to live, work with, and love her but not kiss a corpse.
If you read even Adriono's notes you would see the situation was a set up by a self admitted manipulator, Henrietta.
I do not believe Grimms have a natural enemy. I believe they assign enemies by the other persons actions. After a while it might seem that most Wessen are bad and a Grimm parent might pass that attitude to thier children. I mean the English and the French still harbor resentments to this day going back to the hundred year war, which occurred around 800 years ago, but in WWII they were allies. So can you say they are natural enemies, obviously not.
Why would Hexan and Grimms be natural enemies? In Elisabeth so far we have seen a manipulative woman but she does her manipulation on the order of a good mother. We have not seen any inherently evil actions or that she sets out to hurt people. So the problems may as you have pointed out be that she went to the wrong sources in the first place for information and one of them had an agenda of her own.
If she had instead gone to her friend from a few years before who seemed to see things, she might have gotten very different advise and a different outcome...
Except there is every possibility that the out come was determined by real world events not just the story line. It seems Bittsie may have wanted out of the show.
the characters have an impact on one another
Quote:Irukandji wrote:
I've been thinking about something for a while and wanted to put it out for discussion. When Juliette sent the email to Kelly, the cards were already stacked against her. Nick plainly showed his disgust at her, Monroe and Rosalie distanced themselves, and she saw what she perceived as Nick appearing to favor Adalind over her. Is it possible her betrayal of Kelly was twofold? If Nick was disgusted by her how would Kelly view her? Perhaps as a terrible enemy? If so, was Juliette also eliminating an enemy who would stop at nothing to kill her?
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
I haven't think about that. I don't know if Juliette thought about that... But if she did, this would be the only smart strategic action she could have.
Considering how Kelly dealt with Adelainds mother and that Kelly had no other sentimental conetion with Julitte than Juliette beeing Nick's girlfriend... Kelly would be the worst enemy Juliette would have.
By the same logic, Juliette could have come back to the house to kill Nick. She knew Nick would not stop until he got revenge over every responsable for his mother death.
In that moment, Nick didn't got the courage to kill Juliette... But who knows what Nick would do after?
This way, killing Nick in a moment of weakniss would be a very smart strategic action... just as it was killing Kelly before she become her declared enemy.
Quote:Irukandji wrote:
This is what I think. Juliette, in her hexenbiest state, was figuring both Kelly and Nick as the enemy. As such they would be coming after her. The two of them would be a terrible force. So Juliette offers the royals Diana in exchange for disposing of Kelly. One half of the team gone. I also think Juliette went back to kill Nick. She sees him as a threat to her hexenbiest. After all, he has already tried to kill her once.
So why does she offer to let him kill her? I see that as a tactic. Maybe she knew he wouldn't or couldn't. I also see Nick's refusal to fight back also as a tactic. He gives Trubel time to get on the scene by distracting Juliette.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
This really does make sense.
Your post make me wondering: when do you think Juliette realized Nick was a threat, considering this plot is true? And why?
I was thinking about that and I come up with a plot that I believe is coherent with the events of the season 4.
Note 1
First I have to say that I have the impression Juliette was very aggressive with Nick when she said him about the transformation and when she woged asking Nick to kiss her. I always thought she should have talked to Nick in a way of looking for working together.. But she was more go always from here.
I am not judging her, I am adding this comment because I will come back to this.
Note 2
When Juliette transformed in hexanbiest, she went look for help in the worst possible place: Nick's book. The old Grimm doesn't describe wesen in a good way, so Juliette must have read some bad things about hexanbiest there witch make she think how horrible would she look in the Nick's eyes.
Out of the book, Juliette would see in Nick a Grimm that is friend of a zauberbiest... That Kelly' helped Adelaind with her child even them being Grimm and hexanbiest. That Nick is some kind of admired in the wesen world because of the way he deal with them. But in the Grimm books there's no place for them.
Note 3
Juliette got afraid of Nick discovering she was a hexanbiest based in the books. She asked for help with Sean. I think he is not Nick's friend because he should have said to her work together with Nick on this. He didn't. He sent her to Henrietta witch wasn't a bad thing... Maybe.
Note 4
As far as I remember Henrietta wasn't for much help here. If I am not wrong she asked Juliette if she told Nick and say that Grimm and hexanbiest are natural enemies. Juliette would now really see Nick as a threat. Until now, looks like there was a hexanbiest plot against Nick and Juliette.
I believe this was because of the hexanbiest instinct of surviving that naturally sees Grimm as a threat. I come back to this.
Note 5
The hexanbiest survival instinct in Juliette tests Nick. Here we come to the note 1. Juliette was not pushing Nick alway. She was testing him. That can explain why she was, in view, so aggressive. Juliette was not asking for help, she was testing if Nick would be able to pass over his Grimm nature to stay with Juliette.
In the hexanbiest survival instinct view, Nick failed.
From this point, Juliette was sure all Grimm around her would a threat. This feeling that started reading the book now is tested in Nick reaction.
Note 6
When Nick went to Henrietta, she told him that hexanbiest ate manipulative but she never say to him they are naturally enemies. So Nick had no advice about being careful about Juliette or how to show Juliette that they are not enemies. See note 4.
Henrietta said Nick to give space to Juliette and to be careful. That is right. But she never gave a sign that Juliette would see him as threat. Nick could have done things differently.
Note 7
If Juliette felt threatened by the Grimm starting from the books, it does make sense why the first victim was the trailer and the books. I really never understand that. OK, she fired the trailer to create a distraction so she could sent the email. But again burning the trailer was to aggressive. But in this scenario it does make sense for me.
Note 8
I argued with jsgrimm45 in another post that hexanbiest like royal, at least the ones we have seeing in the show. By this, Juliette alliance with the royals would fit is this theory. Feeling threatened by the Grimm, the royal would be a safe choice for the hexanbiest.
Note 9
The rest of irukandji theory posted before. Juliette betrayal on Kelly and the attack to Nick was part of a survival instinct of the hexanbiest spirit in Juliette.
Samsarilian wrote:
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
This really does make sense.
Your post make me wondering: when do you think Juliette realized Nick was a threat, considering this plot is true? And why?
I was thinking about that and I come up with a plot that I believe is coherent with the events of the season 4.
Note 1
First I have to say that I have the impression Juliette was very aggressive with Nick when she said him about the transformation and when she woged asking Nick to kiss her. I always thought she should have talked to Nick in a way of looking for working together.. But she was more go always from here.
I am not judging her, I am adding this comment because I will come back to this.
Note 2
When Juliette transformed in hexanbiest, she went look for help in the worst possible place: Nick's book. The old Grimm doesn't describe wesen in a good way, so Juliette must have read some bad things about hexanbiest there witch make she think how horrible would she look in the Nick's eyes.
Out of the book, Juliette would see in Nick a Grimm that is friend of a zauberbiest... That Kelly' helped Adelaind with her child even them being Grimm and hexanbiest. That Nick is some kind of admired in the wesen world because of the way he deal with them. But in the Grimm books there's no place for them.
Note 3
Juliette got afraid of Nick discovering she was a hexanbiest based in the books. She asked for help with Sean. I think he is not Nick's friend because he should have said to her work together with Nick on this. He didn't. He sent her to Henrietta witch wasn't a bad thing... Maybe.
Note 4
As far as I remember Henrietta wasn't for much help here. If I am not wrong she asked Juliette if she told Nick and say that Grimm and hexanbiest are natural enemies. Juliette would now really see Nick as a threat. Until now, looks like there was a hexanbiest plot against Nick and Juliette.
I believe this was because of the hexanbiest instinct of surviving that naturally sees Grimm as a threat. I come back to this.
Note 5
The hexanbiest survival instinct in Juliette tests Nick. Here we come to the note 1. Juliette was not pushing Nick alway. She was testing him. That can explain why she was, in view, so aggressive. Juliette was not asking for help, she was testing if Nick would be able to pass over his Grimm nature to stay with Juliette.
In the hexanbiest survival instinct view, Nick failed.
I would disagree. This was Juliettes fail in the definition of the test. Not being able to kiss a rotting corpse is a common reaction among all humans. Humanity as a whole sees death and disease as going hand in hand and are repulsed by it, this occurs at the sub conscious if not instinctive level. If she was testing him this was the wrong test to chose. He showed he was still willing to live, work with, and love her but not kiss a corpse.
Quote:Adriano Neres Rodrigues wrote:
From this point, Juliette was sure all Grimm around her would a threat. This feeling that started reading the book now is tested in Nick reaction.
Note 6
When Nick went to Henrietta, she told him that hexanbiest ate manipulative but she never say to him they are naturally enemies. So Nick had no advice about being careful about Juliette or how to show Juliette that they are not enemies. See note 4.
Henrietta said Nick to give space to Juliette and to be careful. That is right. But she never gave a sign that Juliette would see him as threat. Nick could have done things differently.
Note 7
If Juliette felt threatened by the Grimm starting from the books, it does make sense why the first victim was the trailer and the books. I really never understand that. OK, she fired the trailer to create a distraction so she could sent the email. But again burning the trailer was to aggressive. But in this scenario it does make sense for me.
Note 8
I argued with jsgrimm45 in another post that hexanbiest like royal, at least the ones we have seeing in the show. By this, Juliette alliance with the royals would fit is this theory. Feeling threatened by the Grimm, the royal would be a safe choice for the hexanbiest.
Note 9
The rest of irukandji theory posted before. Juliette betrayal on Kelly and the attack to Nick was part of a survival instinct of the hexanbiest spirit in Juliette.
If you read even Adriono's notes you would see the situation was a set up by a self admitted manipulator, Henrietta.
I do not believe Grimms have a natural enemy. I believe they assign enemies by the other persons actions. After a while it might seem that most Wessen are bad and a Grimm parent might pass that attitude to thier children. I mean the English and the French still harbor resentments to this day going back to the hundred year war, which occurred around 800 years ago, but in WWII they were allies. So can you say they are natural enemies, obviously not.
Why would Hexan and Grimms be natural enemies? In Elisabeth so far we have seen a manipulative woman but she does her manipulation on the order of a good mother. We have not seen any inherently evil actions or that she sets out to hurt people. So the problems may as you have pointed out be that she went to the wrong sources in the first place for information and one of them had an agenda of her own.
If she had instead gone to her friend from a few years before who seemed to see things, she might have gotten very different advise and a different outcome...
Except there is every possibility that the out come was determined by real world events not just the story line. It seems Bittsie may have wanted out of the show.
The best way to frustrate a cyberbully is to ignore him.