+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Grimm Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Discussions)
+--- Thread: If Wesen came out... (/Thread-If-Wesen-came-out)
RE: If Wesen came out... - irukandji - 03-08-2018
(03-06-2018, 11:52 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: again very good points. I think it points to the direction that for some reason wesen in our world were in smaller quantity in the beginning. Or maybe each specy fought their own battle. What I mean is that maybe there weren’t a leader capable of unite all the different types of wesen under a single flag.
I don't think it's a big brain stretch that wesen were able to unite and become a singular power, for example, like the Roman Empire. They may have started the Roman Empire for all we know. That empire was made up of all kinds of people. Many countries favored Roman occupation because they were given protection by a sovereignty as well as access to other benefits. In return, Roman gained a larger empire, could levy taxes, and assimilate any resources the country had to offer into their empire.
Grimm portrays wesen in an unsavory light. Most are brutish, mean, have a tendency toward criminal activity, and are not very smart. As such, they cannot unite into a formidable force. I imagine all of this is done to promote the noble, oh so stalwart and objective Nick. Even Monroe, who in my opinion has the intelligence and the empathy to be a leader, is not given an opportunity to do so. Would it really be so hard to imagine that a man like Monroe could gain a following that could evolve into an empire?
RE: If Wesen came out... - brandon - 03-09-2018
And what about the "Wesen council?".
A part of these Wesen were not willing to obey the laws "human" and Wesen,maybe if the main one does not show up before the people
RE: If Wesen came out... - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-09-2018
(03-08-2018, 05:39 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-06-2018, 11:52 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: again very good points. I think it points to the direction that for some reason wesen in our world were in smaller quantity in the beginning. Or maybe each specy fought their own battle. What I mean is that maybe there weren’t a leader capable of unite all the different types of wesen under a single flag.
I don't think it's a big brain stretch that wesen were able to unite and become a singular power, for example, like the Roman Empire. They may have started the Roman Empire for all we know. That empire was made up of all kinds of people. Many countries favored Roman occupation because they were given protection by a sovereignty as well as access to other benefits. In return, Roman gained a larger empire, could levy taxes, and assimilate any resources the country had to offer into their empire.
Grimm portrays wesen in an unsavory light. Most are brutish, mean, have a tendency toward criminal activity, and are not very smart. As such, they cannot unite into a formidable force. I imagine all of this is done to promote the noble, oh so stalwart and objective Nick. Even Monroe, who in my opinion has the intelligence and the empathy to be a leader, is not given an opportunity to do so. Would it really be so hard to imagine that a man like Monroe could gain a following that could evolve into an empire?
irukandji, in general I agree with your post. You are right about Monroe being able to be a leader and that is not hard for wesen to have worked together and so on.
The problem is exactly what you worte about the show: Grimm portrays wesen in an unsavory light.
What I mean is that considering the show and the entire context (and the way the show portrait wesen), I can't see in the beginning of human / wesen / grimm history they working together because if that had happened the show would be completely different.
For example, the way I understood the show:
If wesen X grimm X humans have worked together in the beginning, there would be no need for mutual fear.
If wesen have worked together to wesen, they would probably dominate earth and humans and grimm would be the ones in fear. At least humans would know them.
So, I hope you understand it is not how I would like things have happened. That is the way I see things happening in a way the actual present in the series have happened. What I am trying to do is to create a theory that works fine with the overall series context.
Think about the council, for example. If I understood correctly, it doesn’t exist to protect humans. It exists to protect wesen. It was said in some episode (I think the bank robber one) that if human find out about wesen human would hunt them as it happened in the past. So the idea of hiding the wesen is to protect them from humans to hunt them. Would it happen if wesen were in a big quantity?
Think about the royals. If in the past (middle ages) we have had king wesens, at least one or two of the seven royal families would be a family of wesen. But that is not the case.
Maybe times the show showed wesen that are enemies of other wesen types, because of the hunt X prey dynamics.
Again, that is just a way to try to make theory that connects with the overall series context.
RE: If Wesen came out... - irukandji - 03-09-2018
(03-09-2018, 10:40 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: What I mean is that considering the show and the entire context (and the way the show portrait wesen), I can't see in the beginning of human / wesen / grimm history they working together because if that had happened the show would be completely different.
I could see this if humans and wesen lived for thousands of years, adding and if the show showed some peculiarity in humans and wesen that was passed on from generation to generation. So a tribe of ancient wesen who hated humans in 340 BC would still hate humans in 1977.
But Grimm never proposed that wesen are all of the same. A tribe of human hating wesen in 340 BC might merge with a tribe that contains humans. There may still be some human hating wesen in the bunch, but it's conceivable that there were be wesen who not only learned to like humans, but worked alongside of them for the betterment of the tribe. It's even conceivable that the human hating wesen worked for the betterment of the tribe as well. If they didn't, then the entire tribe was at risk of extinction.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Robyn - 03-10-2018
(03-05-2018, 06:03 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: ...But my question is earlier: I am talking about a time when there were no Egypt. I am asking about a time when we have just a small group of people (a tribe) fighting for their life. In that time anyone could have claimed to be the leader of the human group.Large groups invariably begin as small scattered groups & individuals coming together over time. I think any ancient union of Grimm, Wesen, and Humans is more in line with your initial post - those who came together as a way to survive and hopefully flourish. The first leader wouldn’t instantly have a mighty army to secure a large land mass & population for him to rule. But if a potential pharaoh/Royal convinced small groups that uniting under his leadership ensured sustained safety and prosperity, Grimm might have committed to fighting those who threatened this promise of safety & prosperity. This scenario could bring about what we know today as Egyptian pharaohs in real life and Royal Families on the show.
Eric brought up an interesting comparison to the Z world - human vs. Wesen without Grimm intervention. I think Grimm would stand out in the Z world to some degree, because unlike human prey, they had the physical strength to protect themselves against Wesen predators. I see Nick becoming the leader of the human tribe had he remained in the Z world because the human population didn’t appear capable of overthrowing the Wesen population under any human’s leadership. But in the show’s fictional real world, Grimm were natural born soldiers/mercenaries rather than natural born leaders. Even after cutting ties with the Royal families, Grimm continued as soldiers/mercenaries rather than uniting likeminded Human and Wesen under their leadership to stand against the tyrannical rule of the Royal Families.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-10-2018
(03-09-2018, 09:28 PM)irukandji Wrote:(03-09-2018, 10:40 AM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: What I mean is that considering the show and the entire context (and the way the show portrait wesen), I can't see in the beginning of human / wesen / grimm history they working together because if that had happened the show would be completely different.
I could see this if humans and wesen lived for thousands of years, adding and if the show showed some peculiarity in humans and wesen that was passed on from generation to generation. So a tribe of ancient wesen who hated humans in 340 BC would still hate humans in 1977.
But Grimm never proposed that wesen are all of the same. A tribe of human hating wesen in 340 BC might merge with a tribe that contains humans. There may still be some human hating wesen in the bunch, but it's conceivable that there were be wesen who not only learned to like humans, but worked alongside of them for the betterment of the tribe. It's even conceivable that the human hating wesen worked for the betterment of the tribe as well. If they didn't, then the entire tribe was at risk of extinction.
Actually that was exactly what meant. Grimm and wesen and humans living for 50 thousand years and how this would be like today.
RE: If Wesen came out... - eric - 03-10-2018
No matter how many individual wessen groups there are and what the total amount of wessen there are, humans have one big advantage. For the humans. everyone else was a danger, while for all the wessen groups humans were one of many they had to contend with. The Blutbad fought with the Bowerswine, the hexs fougtht with everyone, etc, every group had a least one group it hated more than the humans. In North and Middle America, when the Europeans arrived, they allied with one group of Native Americans after another to finally defeat them all. Cortez had 400+ Spanish, the Aztec had armies of thousands. Cortez allied with other local tribes and nations to defeat the Aztec, who they all hated for good reasons. Once the others realized their mistake, it was too late. The English and French did the same in North America. BC figured out that if all wessen united together, the humans could be defeated. No one realized that a little girl hex would kill the BC leader.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Robyn - 03-11-2018
(03-10-2018, 07:31 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Actually that was exactly what meant. Grimm and wesen and humans living for 50 thousand years and how this would be like today.Theoretically, it would be similar to evolution we understand today - periods of progression & decline and peace & conflict influenced by natural selection, climate/geography, and species-produced consequences.
A catastrophic event annihilating many dinosaur species and evolution developing surviving species into wildlife Homo sapiens could effectively manage is a significant factor in our evolution. Albeit on a much smaller scale, if Human and Wesen populated the planet in the show’s fictional world, the timely introduction of Grimm better ensured the survival and continued development of Humans. Evolution balancing the playing field between Wesen and Humans wasn’t necessarily meant to bring about the extinction of the Wesen species, only prevent their domination over Humans. However, it questions whether evolution intended the introduction of Grimm to ensure Human domination over Wesen or if Human domination was a result of cause and effect.
(03-10-2018, 07:51 PM)eric Wrote: The Blutbad fought with the Bowerswine, the hexs fougtht with everyone, etc, every group had a least one group it hated more than the humans.Human history is rife with fighting against and murdering our own, so I don’t understand why one Wesen species fighting against another Wesen species would have such a detrimental effect. Do you think Wesen didn’t grasp the concept of the enemy of my enemy is my friend until the twenty-first century? Or, do you think the belief that safety required secrecy became so ingrained that it was difficult for a BC like group to convince a sufficient number of affluent Wesen to believe a revolution was possible?
RE: If Wesen came out... - irukandji - 03-11-2018
(03-10-2018, 07:31 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(03-09-2018, 09:28 PM)irukandji Wrote: I could see this if humans and wesen lived for thousands of years, adding and if the show showed some peculiarity in humans and wesen that was passed on from generation to generation. So a tribe of ancient wesen who hated humans in 340 BC would still hate humans in 1977.
But Grimm never proposed that wesen are all of the same. A tribe of human hating wesen in 340 BC might merge with a tribe that contains humans. There may still be some human hating wesen in the bunch, but it's conceivable that there were be wesen who not only learned to like humans, but worked alongside of them for the betterment of the tribe. It's even conceivable that the human hating wesen worked for the betterment of the tribe as well. If they didn't, then the entire tribe was at risk of extinction.
Actually that was exactly what meant. Grimm and wesen and humans living for 50 thousand years and how this would be like today.
I seem to recall a discussion somewhere on this forum that talked about Hitler being a wesen. Hitler managed to unite Germany into a world class force and almost won the world war. It's not likely he would have been able to do so unless wesen, grimms, and humans were working together under that united cause.
RE: If Wesen came out... - Adriano Neres Rodrigues - 03-11-2018
(03-11-2018, 08:24 AM)irukandji Wrote:(03-10-2018, 07:31 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote:(03-09-2018, 09:28 PM)irukandji Wrote: I could see this if humans and wesen lived for thousands of years, adding and if the show showed some peculiarity in humans and wesen that was passed on from generation to generation. So a tribe of ancient wesen who hated humans in 340 BC would still hate humans in 1977.
But Grimm never proposed that wesen are all of the same. A tribe of human hating wesen in 340 BC might merge with a tribe that contains humans. There may still be some human hating wesen in the bunch, but it's conceivable that there were be wesen who not only learned to like humans, but worked alongside of them for the betterment of the tribe. It's even conceivable that the human hating wesen worked for the betterment of the tribe as well. If they didn't, then the entire tribe was at risk of extinction.
Actually that was exactly what meant. Grimm and wesen and humans living for 50 thousand years and how this would be like today.
I seem to recall a discussion somewhere on this forum that talked about Hitler being a wesen. Hitler managed to unite Germany into a world class force and almost won the world war. It's not likely he would have been able to do so unless wesen, grimms, and humans were working together under that united cause.
You are right. The show said Hitler was a wesen and he was able to unite German.
But considering the show context, Hitler never showed everyone he was a wesen. If German people knew, we don't know what would have happened. Actually, Hitler managed to control German because of the coins... It had nothing to do with he being a wesen or not.
(03-11-2018, 08:19 AM)Robyn Wrote:(03-10-2018, 07:31 PM)Adriano Neres Rodrigues Wrote: Actually that was exactly what meant. Grimm and wesen and humans living for 50 thousand years and how this would be like today.Theoretically, it would be similar to evolution we understand today - periods of progression & decline and peace & conflict influenced by natural selection, climate/geography, and species-produced consequences.
A catastrophic event annihilating many dinosaur species and evolution developing surviving species into wildlife Homo sapiens could effectively manage is a significant factor in our evolution. Albeit on a much smaller scale, if Human and Wesen populated the planet in the show’s fictional world, the timely introduction of Grimm better ensured the survival and continued development of Humans. Evolution balancing the playing field between Wesen and Humans wasn’t necessarily meant to bring about the extinction of the Wesen species, only prevent their domination over Humans. However, it questions whether evolution intended the introduction of Grimm to ensure Human domination over Wesen or if Human domination was a result of cause and effect.
(03-10-2018, 07:51 PM)eric Wrote: The Blutbad fought with the Bowerswine, the hexs fougtht with everyone, etc, every group had a least one group it hated more than the humans.Human history is rife with fighting against and murdering our own, so I don’t understand why one Wesen species fighting against another Wesen species would have such a detrimental effect. Do you think Wesen didn’t grasp the concept of the enemy of my enemy is my friend until the twenty-first century? Or, do you think the belief that safety required secrecy became so ingrained that it was difficult for a BC like group to convince a sufficient number of affluent Wesen to believe a revolution was possible?
@eric and @robyn
I think you both have a point. In human history we always had a group of humans fighting another group of humans. The point about one wesen type hating another wesen type is that probably they never had a strong reason to fight together against the humans. If they did, probably the humans wouldn't exist anymore. Actually that was BC intention: to have different wesen types fighting together against humans and grimm.