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+--- Thread: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? (/Thread-Were-the-lives-of-Nick%E2%80%99s-crew-in-the-end-a-waste)
Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - izzy - 12-30-2017
Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste?
In another thread the ever thoughtful and provocative Irukandji made this comment:
(12-29-2017, 09:57 PM)irukandji Wrote: Would Monroe disapprove of his children attending a wesen kill with Diana and Kelly?
This set my mind to extrapolating the implications of her question. Hence I broke this one off into a separate thread.
As one of the more introspective and reflective characters on the show, I would tend to think Monroe would grasp the implications of what it means to have his children involved in Grimm/Wesen activities.
Assuming Grimm’s are a force for the good (I have yet to be convinced of that, but for this thread I’ll assume it to be true) or a necessary evil (ditto) there being any need for a Grimms much less the triplets involvement means that the preceding generation (Nick and Crew) were total failures in the sense they failed to move the needle in terms of wesen behavior. Consider if you will they had a vast opportunity to be agents of change given the black hole that was left with the elimination of the wesen council.
This of course mean I am dissatisfied with the ending of Grimm, not so much because it was asinine but because what it says about the characters and the trajectory their lives took. Although one could project their own ending it is hard to dispute the writers felt that Nick, Adalind, Kelly, Diana, and the Triplets loping off the heads of some wesen du jour was suppose uplifting. To me it showed the characters never grew beyond the barbarism of their early state in life. Furthermore they simply replicated the failures of the past. No mention was made of a new and different way by the writers; it would have been easily enough done. Instead they opted for the Grimm universe continues only the major difference now was, wesen were now being turned against wesen, brother against brother and marching in lockstep with the Grimms. It used to be every generation strived to leave their children a bit better off than they were. In this case, one could make the proposition the situation had degraded even more and now wesen kill wesen with the aplomb of the Grimm.
In many ways it is the same message that was conveyed by the classic episode of “All in the Family” entitled “We're Having a Heat Wave”. In that episode the Meathead is distraught to learn the real reason why the bigoted Archie is working hand in hand with the equally bigoted Jefferson, they are conspiring to keep Puerto Ricans out of the neighborhood.
I would have found the same ending far more uplifting and inspiring if there would have been mention of new wesen council who actually oversaw the activities of Grimm and the wesen were given something that approximated due process instead of Adalind and Nick acting as judge jury and executioner. I mean really, given what we know of their lives, do we really want the two of them exercising judgment over anything more complicated than If they want chopped nuts on their sundae at Dairy Queen?
So that is my long answer to Irukandji’s query. My short answer is, yes Monroe would disapprove because he is reflective enough to realize ultimately he failed his children.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - rpmaluki - 12-30-2017
Let me start by saying that whatever Diana and Kelly, along with Nick, Adalind and the triplets were hunting had to be an extremely bad and powerful wesen, because they took the staff and Nick has never went after a wesen that didn't do anything terrible first to garner his attention as a cop and a grimm, so I'm assuming he's still acting within the show's established modus operandi for his character.
Going by the conversation between Nick and his mother and aunt at the end, I'd say Grimm were a force for good. When facing up against evil of the Zerstörer kind, being passive will not be the answer. Just as wesen continued to commit acts of violence that forced the hands of Grimms over the centuries despite having a council that guided their behavior, nothing's changed other than Nick's portion of the world. Besides him and Trubel, I don't think we ever heard of Grimms working side by side with wesen to stop other wesen, we don't really know how HW worked outside of partnering Trubel and Eve on occasion in Portland. This could have been an isolated case. Perhaps the other Grimms held on to their wesen prejudices that's why HW chose only them to finish off BC. The world isn't evolving to make better people when groups like BC are coming out of the woodwork. Nick will continue to do what he's always done, go after those wesen that cause problems in his city, be it small time opportunists or world ending entities that need a stronger hand.
Would Monroe be proud of his children joining the fight? if he was trying to live through his children instead of letting them find their own path like he did, sure he could be disappointed but for all the upheaval Nick brought into Monroe's life, I've never known him to regret helping Nick. It's easy to project one's thoughts onto character especially when one considers their own motives/actions in a given situation, I try to stick to the foundation already set by the writers for the characters to draw conclusion of what/where they ended up. I don't think the ending was meant to be seen as inspiring. It was more like the fight continues and the kids are doing what they believe is the right thing to do. Monroe helped Nick over the years because in his heart he believed it was the right thing to do, if there is no wesen council, that is a vacuum that will not remain thus for long, for better or for worse. These wesen who were otherwise bound by some authority from doing bad things now have free reign to do as they please, that's why BC got rid of the council in the first place. I don't see these outliers falling in line on their own. In the past Monroe has even asked implored Nick to act like the grimms of old under certain circumstances because he felt that Nick's way of doing things wasn't enough in that particular situation.
Whatever we may think of the violent world of Grimm, at no given time were they unnecessary. With Kelly's words to Nick, they sound more like the first line of defense against evik. As the physics saying goes, nature abhors a vacuum, therefore you can't simply do away with them altogether and let the wesen chips fall where they may and hope for the best out of people. It's clear some Grimm methodology is outdated and that needs some adjusting to better deal with the ever changing face of wesen violence in the same way our world is changing and we can't apply ancient ways to deal with today's problems. After all that, I'd imagine Monroe and Rosalee are at least happy to live in a world where their children aren't hunted anymore.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - izzy - 12-30-2017
(12-30-2017, 09:56 PM)rpmaluki Wrote: Let me start by saying that whatever Diana and Kelly, along with Nick, Adalind and the triplets were hunting had to be an extremely bad and powerful wesen, because they took the staff and Nick has never went after a wesen that didn't do anything terrible first to garner his attention as a cop and a grimm, so I'm assuming he's still acting within the show's established modus operandi for his character.
Going by the conversation between Nick and his mother and aunt at the end, I'd say Grimm were a force for good. When facing up against evil of the Zerstörer kind, being passive will not be the answer. Just as wesen continued to commit acts of violence that forced the hands of Grimms over the centuries despite having a council that guided their behavior, nothing's changed other than Nick's portion of the world. Besides him and Trubel, I don't think we ever heard of Grimms working side by side with wesen to stop other wesen, we don't really know how HW worked outside of partnering Trubel and Eve on occasion in Portland. This could have been an isolated case. Perhaps the other Grimms held on to their wesen prejudices that's why HW chose only them to finish off BC. The world isn't evolving to make better people when groups like BC are coming out of the woodwork. Nick will continue to do what he's always done, go after those wesen that cause problems in his city, be it small time opportunists or world ending entities that need a stronger hand.
Would Monroe be proud of his children joining the fight? if he was trying to live through his children instead of letting them find their own path like he did, sure he could be disappointed but for all the upheaval Nick brought into Monroe's life, I've never known him to regret helping Nick. It's easy to project one's thoughts onto character especially when one considers their own motives/actions in a given situation, I try to stick to the foundation already set by the writers for the characters to draw conclusion of what/where they ended up. I don't think the ending was meant to be seen as inspiring. It was more like the fight continues and the kids are doing what they believe is the right thing to do. Monroe helped Nick over the years because in his heart he believed it was the right thing to do, if there is no wesen council, that is a vacuum that will not remain thus for long, for better or for worse. These wesen who were otherwise bound by some authority from doing bad things now have free reign to do as they please, that's why BC got rid of the council in the first place. I don't see these outliers falling in line on their own. In the past Monroe has even asked implored Nick to act like the grimms of old under certain circumstances because he felt that Nick's way of doing things wasn't enough in that particular situation.
Whatever we may think of the violent world of Grimm, at no given time were they unnecessary. With Kelly's words to Nick, they sound more like the first line of defense against evik. As the physics saying goes, nature abhors a vacuum, therefore you can't simply do away with them altogether and let the wesen chips fall where they may and hope for the best out of people. It's clear some Grimm methodology is outdated and that needs some adjusting to better deal with the ever changing face of wesen violence in the same way our world is changing and we can't apply ancient ways to deal with today's problems. After all that, I'd imagine Monroe and Rosalee are at least happy to live in a world where their children aren't hunted anymore.
Great post! I'll just add, I think Monroe had been on a roller coaster with Nick, getting married etc and is off his old mark by a wide margin. In my view he has little time to think and ruminate by the shows end. As you stated:
I try to stick to the foundation already set by the writers for the characters to draw conclusion of what/where they ended up.
I think in the case of Monroe, he was introduced as a rather standoffish, not exactly brooding, but contemplative character, and his interests and hobbies lend themselves to that. So I just see him, aging a bit, taking out the old pipe, sitting in the easy chair and thinking hmmm....things should be different...
But that is me and how I see the character.
Thanks for the response.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - rpmaluki - 12-31-2017
He most definitely is a thinker but I also feel like it took Nick entering his life to also make into a doer in other areas of his life.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - eric - 12-31-2017
Bud's clan found their lives improved because of Nick. Nick and the gang are not solving all of the wessen issues in 20 years time, it takes longer than that. If more Grimms see the advantage of working with some wessen to change more wessens' behavior, things can change. Most of the wessen were good people, when they learn there is a new way to live, they will help root out the pests. Fear of arrest, jail and/or the death penalty is what keeps most of us in line. The council did not care about how wessen behaved, just that they keep their lives secret. It would be easier for humans to accept wessen if most of them were known not to be dangerous. So no, IMO the crew's lives were not wasted, they were changing the world.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - irukandji - 12-31-2017
(12-31-2017, 08:31 AM)eric Wrote: Bud's clan found their lives improved because of Nick. Nick and the gang are not solving all of the wessen issues in 20 years time, it takes longer than that. If more Grimms see the advantage of working with some wessen to change more wessens' behavior, things can change. Most of the wessen were good people, when they learn there is a new way to live, they will help root out the pests. Fear of arrest, jail and/or the death penalty is what keeps most of us in line. The council did not care about how wessen behaved, just that they keep their lives secret. It would be easier for humans to accept wessen if most of them were known not to be dangerous. So no, IMO the crew's lives were not wasted, they were changing the world.
What bothered me about the end is that now in addition to Nick, people like Diana and Kelly are in charge of who lives and who dies. We know nothing of the wesen being targeted at the end, only Diana stating they have wesen to kill and the triplets are coming along.
Adding to the issue is that Nick now has the weapon that everyone would want to have, one that can not only change time, but if he so desires, murder everyone at once.
I question why these wesen have to die and at the same time who are Nick, Diana, and Kelly that they feel they have the right murder them?
That brings me back to the thread itself. What impact do those kinds of decisions have on Monroe's triplets?
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - eric - 12-31-2017
(12-31-2017, 09:24 AM)irukandji Wrote:I would guess they were raised to understand the important job they were doing, and also to be careful with their decisions. They would have listened to stories of their elders exploits. Maybe all decisions about who to pursue required a vote, 2/3 decision. Aunties Truble and Juliette might also be consulted in difficult cases. Life and death is a big decision, I would hope they would be careful. When the Wessenrine was taken down, most surrendered, some got stupid and tried fight or flight.(12-31-2017, 08:31 AM)eric Wrote: Bud's clan found their lives improved because of Nick. Nick and the gang are not solving all of the wessen issues in 20 years time, it takes longer than that. If more Grimms see the advantage of working with some wessen to change more wessens' behavior, things can change. Most of the wessen were good people, when they learn there is a new way to live, they will help root out the pests. Fear of arrest, jail and/or the death penalty is what keeps most of us in line. The council did not care about how wessen behaved, just that they keep their lives secret. It would be easier for humans to accept wessen if most of them were known not to be dangerous. So no, IMO the crew's lives were not wasted, they were changing the world.
What bothered me about the end is that now in addition to Nick, people like Diana and Kelly are in charge of who lives and who dies. We know nothing of the wesen being targeted at the end, only Diana stating they have wesen to kill and the triplets are coming along.
Adding to the issue is that Nick now has the weapon that everyone would want to have, one that can not only change time, but if he so desires, murder everyone at once.
I question why these wesen have to die and at the same time who are Nick, Diana, and Kelly that they feel they have the right murder them?
That brings me back to the thread itself. What impact do those kinds of decisions have on Monroe's triplets?
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - irukandji - 12-31-2017
(12-31-2017, 10:01 AM)eric Wrote: I would guess they were raised to understand the important job they were doing, and also to be careful with their decisions. They would have listened to stories of their elders exploits. Maybe all decisions about who to pursue required a vote, 2/3 decision. Aunties Truble and Juliette might also be consulted in difficult cases. Life and death is a big decision, I would hope they would be careful. When the Wessenrine was taken down, most surrendered, some got stupid and tried fight or flight.
This is very interesting to me, eric. I assume in this case that you're leaving the explaining of the do's and don't to Nick. That being the case, how would Nick explain the importance of what they do and how it impacts humans in generqal? Part of the job of eliminating evil wesen means that they would feel they would get to a point where any evil wesen are just going to chalk it up and live the normal life because Nick and gang will get them if they don't.
Yet it's 20 years later and as izzy pointed out, nothing's changed. Wesen killings may have even increased.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - eric - 12-31-2017
Irukandji, I agree how the new crew operates was not discussed. For all we know some of the elders could have died while fighting wessen or chocked on a big piece of Monroe's deep dish eggplant pizza and passed on.
We don't really know if Nick, Adeline, Monroe, Rosalee, Hank, Wu, Juliette or Renard are alive and in one piece. We have no idea how anyone makes a living-does Diana still make those trips to Vegas to pay black jack and enter poker tournaments? It is all guess work on our part. I still wish there had been a season 8 so all these questions could have been answered.
RE: Were the lives of Nick’s crew, in the end, a waste? - Henry of green - 12-31-2017
(12-31-2017, 11:13 AM)eric Wrote: Irukandji, I agree how the new crew operates was not discussed. For all we know some of the elders could have died while fighting wessen or chocked on a big piece of Monroe's deep dish eggplant pizza and passed on.
Eric, we know Nick and Adalind are still alive in 20 years and the writers have said the others are still alive to but past the 20 years your right we don’t know.