(12-29-2017, 07:55 PM)izzy Wrote: Consider if you will Genesis 1:27 (among other passages, which I would be delighted if you listed them)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The question before you is are wesen considered human(made in the image of God) and thus subject to the law of God? Cutting to the quick of it, do wesen go to heaven or hell based on their life like humans?

As an additional tease I offer this tidbit from the book of Revelations(21:8):

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

And another aspect,for all the talk of redemption, based on the above quote from Revelations, how could Adalind, Juliette, Monroe, Renard etc be redeemed in any biblical context? Are they not destined for hell?

NewGuy, I certainly await your response.

Quote:“9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

(12-29-2017, 08:48 PM)New Guy Wrote: The Grimm characters seem to have multiple inheritance issues. Both the Kehrseite and Wesen need significant changes to redeem themselves.
I believe Monroe had a family Bible:
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/File:612-Monroe%27s_family_Bible_depicting_%22hell%22.png
There was an episode 5.16, "the Believer" that had a Wesen evangelist.
Wesen would know of God's law. G&K didn't present much evidence, but in Grimm, Kehrseite and Wesen are both subject to the law of God.
N G

(12-29-2017, 09:27 PM)irukandji Wrote: This is a tough one, Izzy. I shall have to give it some thought. In the meantime, however, a couple of things.

There are dual creation accounts in Genesis. The first occurs in the passage you quoted, 1:27. As you quoted, man and woman are created at the same time. The second occurs in Genesis 2:22, and that is where woman is created from man's rib.

The first woman is believed to be Lillith. She would not submit to Adam because they were created as equals. She ends up running away from Adam, and is pursued by angels who try to bring her back. That never happens, and in the interim, Eve is then created from Adam's rib. As such, she is dominant to him.

Not that this has a lot to do with your thoughts here, but I find it interesting that the first woman is created in the image of God. The second is created in the image of man. There are many stories of Lillith. She is often referred to as a demon, and also as a witch. Of course she is despised. Eve, on the other hand, becomes the mother of humanity, and forever linked with original sin.

If wesen look at Adam as the first man and Lillith as the first woman, they would see themselves as created in the image of God. But there would be no sin as Lillith did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. So would they be subject to God's law?

The other thing I was going to mention is Monroe's bible. I find it interesting that there is an angel in it. Another legend not found in the bible is one of angels leaving God's realm and coming to earth. They fell in love with human women and gave birth to a race of giants. Goliath is believed to be the son of one of those unions. Could wesen look at themselves as the descendants of the angels?

(12-29-2017, 11:28 PM)rpmaluki Wrote: Wesen would be children of God since He created everything in the heavens and the earth so they would be subject to God.

As for redemption, there's two types of redemptions in the Bible, old testament where first borns belonged to God and he instigated a law that they could redeem their first born children by offering an animal sacrifice instead (the animal had to be blemish free in order to be accepted) and the second is similar. We are born in sin as descendants of the first Adam and in order to be redeemed, which is to be bought back from our sinful nature a sacrifice was needed Jesus Christ was that sacrifice. According to the Bible He's the Son of God, not a direct descendant of Adam, as in the seed of Adam. Genesis refers to Jesus as the seed of woman. So He's not born with the sin nature like the rest of us and is thus blemish free. He died for all but it's for the individual to accept the free gift of redemption that redeems them from their sinful ways as listed.

We are all sinners but unless a man or woman accept that Jesus is the Saviour/Redeemer, they essentially choose to hold on to the born nature and dying in their sin (spirit leaving body), they then face the "second death" which scholars believe is the eternal separation from God as seen in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Our acceptance is essentially an exchange for Jesus' sinless for our own sinful nature to resemble again the Genesis 1:27 image of God but free from the sin that led to man's downfall as seen through Adam and Eve. They made their choice and "died" so we can make a difference choice and "live". It's all about the choices we make.

(12-30-2017, 12:45 AM)izzy Wrote:

(12-29-2017, 11:28 PM)rpmaluki Wrote: Wesen would be children of God since He created everything in the heavens and the earth so they would be subject to God.

As for redemption, there's two types of redemptions in the Bible, old testament where first borns belonged to God and he instigated a law that they could redeem their first born children by offering an animal sacrifice instead (the animal had to be blemish free in order to be accepted) and the second is similar. We are born in sin as descendants of the first Adam and in order to be redeemed, which is to be bought back from our sinful nature a sacrifice was needed Jesus Christ was that sacrifice. According to the Bible He's the Son of God, not a direct descendant of Adam, as in the seed of Adam. Genesis refers to Jesus as the seed of woman. So He's not born with the sin nature like the rest of us and is thus blemish free. He died for all but it's for the individual to accept the free gift of redemption that redeems them from their sinful ways as listed.

We are all sinners but unless a man or woman accept that Jesus is the Saviour/Redeemer, they essentially choose to hold on to the born nature and dying in their sin (spirit leaving body), they then face the "second death" which scholars believe is the eternal separation from God as seen in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Our acceptance is essentially an exchange for Jesus' sinless for our own sinful nature to resemble again the Genesis 1:27 image of God but free from the sin that led to man's downfall as seen through Adam and Eve. They made their choice and "died" so we can make a difference choice and "live". It's all about the choices we make.

First a caveat, I am well versed in various forms of bibles and in particular the Dead Sea Scrolls....but it is from a historical/translation perspective not an actual religious or religious interpretive perspective. Which is to say I am ignorant of religious context. So as fascinating as I find this topic, I am more along for the ride. Clearly NewGuy, irukandji, and rpmaluki are my superiors in this regard.

That being said, I do have question, one asked in earnest.

In this:

Wesen would be children of God since He created everything in the heavens and the earth so they would be subject to God.

What do you mean by subject to God?

(12-29-2017, 09:20 PM)izzy Wrote:

(12-29-2017, 08:48 PM)New Guy Wrote: The Grimm characters seem to have multiple inheritance issues. Both the Kehrseite and Wesen need significant changes to redeem themselves.
I believe Monroe had a family Bible:
http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/File:612-Monroe%27s_family_Bible_depicting_%22hell%22.png
There was an episode 5.16, "the Believer" that had a Wesen evangelist.
Wesen would know of God's law. G&K didn't present much evidence, but in Grimm, Kehrseite and Wesen are both subject to the law of God.
N G

So then are you saying you, NewGuy, would consider wesen children of God and thus able to go heaven and also subject to hell?