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+--- Thread: When did Adalind Redeem herself? (/Thread-When-did-Adalind-Redeem-herself)
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - Henry of green - 12-29-2017
(12-28-2017, 06:27 PM)izzy Wrote:(12-28-2017, 04:02 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Says you
Wow, what a sophomoric and hormone laden post, this should be fun. It appears one has an overdeveloped perception of self and one’s own opinions.
And you are correct, “says” me. My opinion and observations are based on a lifetime of experience in human interactions. The only television shows that require you suspend the reality most of us live in, in terms of human interaction, are cartoons. Just because the show is Grimm and is about the wesen world does not mean humans behave differently in the interpersonal relationships.
Quote:…there is nothing in the past 2 seasons of the show indicating Adalind was minipulating anyone
Except a lifetime of experience, the knowledge a leopard does not change it spots, and the show itself. There is a reason why addicts who understand themselves always reference themselves as an addict, even when they have been off the substance of their weakness for years. What they learn to do is channel their compulsive nature, put restraints around themselves, AND change their associations. The latter is the key. There is a reason why parolees are not allowed to associate with their old click and a reason why addicts are encouraged to form new associations. Adalind is a manipulator by nature, consciously and unconsciously it is her survival mechanism and default behavior. It is beyond incredulous to believe that Adalind was able to change her nature without altering any of her associations, the nature of the challenges in front of her, or anything else via willpower alone.
You would have to be an idiot not to see that Adalind used her sexuality to manipulate Nick. And, drum roll, what do you call not telling Nick your Hexen is back? That is not manipulation? What planet do your people come from anyways? And don't bother, it is rhetorical question, I really don’t care.
Quote:but Adalind who has murded just 2 in self defence is not redeemable
As I pointed out, unless she changes locale, changes associates, divines new ways to cope with old problems all you have is a mask, a thin veneer. That veneer is awful thin, how long did it take her to get naked for Nick in order to manipulate him? As I said a leopard does not change its spots.
Quote:As for an affair Adalind had countless opportunities to cheat on Nick with Renard but instead rejected him multiple times.
:
All I can say is, learn to read. Really. I never stated or implied Adalind had an affair. As far as I can tell she never was in a committed relationship to have an affair from. Adalind always was a whore; no man would want to claim her as his own or care who else she spread her legs for. She may have rejected Renard because she wanted to pretend she was something other than every man’s whore, but more likely, it would have simply been incongruent with the game she was running on Nick.
Quote:and somehow Monroe, a guy who has murderd countless people is redeemable
and
Quote:Monroe even admitted to hunting the real thing meaning humans to the wesen boys camp in 4x19. He also couldn’t control himself in the pilot and couldn’t go into the cabin in case he went after the child.
As I wrote earlier (before I read this section of your post) true reformations involve several steps.
channel their compulsive nature – Monroe became a detail oriented master clock crafstman/repairer and thru himself into antiques, both arenas that take a great deal of compulsive study; a classic channeling technique.
put restraints around themselves – Monroe is a Wieder Blutbaden and “stays reformed through a strict regimen of diet, drugs, and exercise”
AND change their associations – Monroe kept his own council and did not associate with other wesen until Nick dragged him back into the active wesen world.
Monroe, like Rosalee, exhibited the steps that are taken that are known to lead a successful change in life. That is how you gain redemption, by making fundamental changes in who you are.
Quote:As for Adalind being a miniplutor, Adalind has never once during the show Minipulated anyone she cares deeply about she never minipulated Renard once is season 1 beacuse she cared/ loved him and only turned against and minipulated him in later seasons beacuse he threw her away like trash in 1x17 and she no longer cared for him as much. You can think she in minipulating Nick if you wish but unfortunately it doesn’t match what we were shown on the show. 20 years is a pretty long con if you ask me.
LOL, you have to be kidding. Oh my gosh, you are killing me here. Adalind got exactly what she wanted from Nick…the con worked. I would say Nick fell for it and that Nick always was an idiot except I am not sure which party got the short end of the stick in this relationship and who the idiot truly was. And you have no idea what those 20 years were like, and either do I, you are assuming they were happy ever after. Logic would dictate they were challenging at best. I am sure Adalind always assumed she could find a guy who could throw a decent f***, so that consideration would have been easy for very circumnavigate with her well established alley-cat morality. A whole lot of people soldier on it relationships, for a variety of reasons. I certainly would not assume it was a healthy relationship for either party.
Quote:The actress playing Rosalee seems to fully suggest Rosalee sees Adalind as redemmed and changed.
I agree and concede your point, only to add, this type of judgment is precisely why we do not allow ex-addicts to become air traffic controllers or account executives in the finance industry.
Quote:Renard is infact the only main character I think hasn’t redeemed himself fully by the shows end and his actions in my opinion on the show are even worse than Juliette’s or Adalinds.
Why should he redeem himself? Do you really think he looks at the scoobies as his peer network? Why would you seek redemption among assorted rabble? He is royalty and acts it. I am sure he does not and has not troubled himself with what the scoobies think of him.
At any rate, all staged belligerence aside it was interesting dissecting your uh, thought, process.
Cheers.
Izzy, It was established that Adalind hid her powers from Nick until 5x19 when she revelaved them because of fear not manipulation. The actors involved in the show even revealed during interviews that Adalinds feelings for Nick during this period were pure their words not mine. You are entitled to your opinion but I'm just saying how it was presented on the show. If Adalind was truly as minipulative as you think surely Bc and Mayor elect Renard were better options but she rejected both. If she was just manipulating Nick surely she could have just slept with Renard in the mansion, it’s not as if Nick would have ever found out. But she refused to betray Nick as she rejected Renards every attempt to get her into bed and she even Managed to break Dianias compulson that forced her to kiss Renard.
If Adalind was the same Minipulator you claim she is why did she sit crying alone in the fome in 5x12 devastated after her powers returned its not as if anyone was around to watch her she’s not putting on an act for anyone
TVLINE | But she’s not now. Is the transformation full-on? Will she go back to being an evil menace?
COFFEE | The fear for her — and what she expresses to Rosalee in this episode — is that “You don’t understand what happened, how that takes over.” Because Rosalee is trying to tell her, “You’re different now. Maybe it will be different.” And she’s saying no, this thing takes hold of you and it controls you. I think for the episodes that follow, you’ll see little bits and pieces of that Hexenbiest weaving back in.
TURNER | Adalind’s vulnerability at that point — she really, really doesn’t want this to be happening. She feels good in who she is now, she has these pure feelings for Nick, and they have their child together. This is just going to f—k everything up. [Laughs]
Claire Coffee interview parade
Nick and Adalind have quite the history. What would you like to see happen for them?
I try not to think, “Oh, what would I like to see?’ because it’s so different for me as an actress vs. for Adalind. I think what Adalind would like is to be back with Nick, be happy, and be able to establish a family with him. I think Adalind firmly believes that Nick and company are on the right side, and she wants to be, too. She doesn’t want to go back to her evil roots, and she doesn’t want to be working with Black Claw. So she’d like to be back with them, and so at this point, it’s just figuring out a way to get back there.
What’s really interesting is we didn’t like Adalind in Season 1, but now we’re rooting for her.
My character’s had such a journey. She had powers, lost powers, gained powers, lost powers. And now she has the powers, doesn’t want what the powers bring along with them, but is using her powers for good.
Izzy, you can believe she’s just as manipulative as she always has been if you wish but it doesn’t match up to what we were shown in the last 2 seasons.
I didn’t once consider Adalinds confession of love and sleeping with him being manipulative at all beacuse Nick was going to Germany ethier way what reason would she have to minipulate him. It is perfectly within Adalinds charecter to fall hard for guys, she did it with Renard in season 1 the only difference is she never told Renard she loved him. There also wasn’t a single hint that Adalind wasn’t being truthful with her I love you to Nick as she also said it multiple times after 5x11.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - Hell Rell - 12-29-2017
@Izzy, I really think you're ignoring what actually happened on the show to project your own beliefs on to it. The whole "Adalind was running a con" theory is one of the most unfounded theories on the forum. You're not taking Adalind's character development into consideration at all. It's the same as people saying Juliette was slumming with Nick when there was never anything on the show to support it.
We all have personal experiences we bring with us to the show and it's hard not for us to be bias. However, our personal experiences usually don't have anything to do with the show. Adalind being a leopard who doesn't change her spots hasn't had one instance in the show that even hinted to this being true. You seem more concerned with calling her a whore or calling Nick a man-child. This colors your opinion about everything they do even when it doesn't apply and you have to ignore what happened on the show to make it true. Juliette is often the victim of this same reasoning.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - izzy - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 05:36 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Izzy, you can believe she’s just as manipulative as she always has been if you wish but it doesn’t match up to what we were shown in the last 2 seasons.
(12-29-2017, 10:16 AM)Hell Rell Wrote: @izzy, I really think you're ignoring what actually happened on the show to project your own beliefs on to it. The whole "Adalind was running a con" theory is one of the most unfounded theories on the forum. You're not taking Adalind's character development into consideration at all. It's the same as people saying Juliette was slumming with Nick when there was never anything on the show to support it.
I can understand how both of you arrived at your viewpoint in regard to my commentary but here is the real issue.
This: "You're not taking Adalind's character development into consideration at all "
That is actually the issue. I do not see the character development. You have, in Adalind, one of the more despicable creatures who ever walked the earth, a creature who uses guile and chicanery they way other people use oxygen.
Let’s review a few characteristics we were told of Hexenbiests (I grabbed these off the Internet somewhere) but it is accurate as I remember how they were conveyed in the show.
- ”They can create illusions”
- ”have the ability to harness seductive powers on others who are within their immediate proximity.”
- “They work at the command of royalty and are extremely loyal creatures, but they are only loyal to whomever they serve, as to others they are treacherous and manipulative, even to their own kind.”
- “When dealing with Hexenbiests, it is important to not get on their bad side, as they seldom forgive and are capable of exacting their revenge in multiple ways that never end well for their offender”
So when dealing with Adalind you never know if what you believe you are seeing is true as she can cast illusions and influence the people around her. Note the defining characteristics, ”treacherous and manipulative”.
But here is the real gem:
Adalind offered up her own baby in exchange to getting her Hexenbiest powers back and even threatened to murder the baby if her powers were not returned. Note at this time she is no longer a Hexenbiest, she is a human. Where is this nice version of Adalind at? She is not longer a Hexenbiest, she is free of it and its grip on her then. So a few seasons later in the same situation we are suddenly suppose to believe what, that she never wanted to be a Hexenbiest? It is totally incongruent. What is congruent is Adalind remained how Adalind always was and remained the manipulative. Treacherous person she always has been.
The trouble with is with the writing of the series. The created a creature in the form of Adalind who threatened to murder her own child in order to become a Hexenbiest again when she was a human. As I said, there are none of the major steps in place that normally mark a person’s transition, there is very little evidence except people’s perception with a creature who art and craft is manipulating people;s perceptions. The writers rather painted themselves into a corner with Adalind. As I said we already did the human Adalind once and guess what she wanted her powers back. Now we are suddenly suppose to believe it is different?
So no, I saw no character development because of the very nature of the character the writers had established. What is far more congruent is all we saw is exactly what Adalind wanted us to see, because that is what she always was and always will be, a creature who manipulates her environment to her end.
So that is my vantage point. The problem is not with my perception, but rather the fact I remember the character of both the creature and the person the writers introduced us to in the form of Adalind.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - Henry of green - 12-29-2017
Izzy, I’m sorry but you clearly have missed half the show Adalind was going to sell Diania, but she decided not to beacuse of the love for her child. Adalind in season 1 was totally loyal to Renard and never once minipulated him until he betrayed her. Adalind for the first 3 seasons was a horrible bitch but she was also very childish and her plans often blew up in her own face. Adalind was at her absolute worst in season 2 when she was human yes, in season 3 she began to change though while pregnant and realized she didnt want to give Diana up .
She then had diania stolen on her, in order to get her back she done some evil crap like sexually tricking Nick into bed to take his powers. But all that was in the first 3 seasons the character has changed you can disregard it if you wish but it’s fact backed up by the writers and staff.
From Adalind went to Nick and the gang in season 4 Adalind has been nothing but loyal to Nick and the gang. You can deny it till your blue in the face but Adalind has changed just like Monroe yet you can somehow accept his redemption but not Adalinds. You also missed out on the fact the Hexenbiests are extremely loyal to thier allies it’s even in the Grimm books.
Also unlike Renard who always just sought power Adalind had reasons to do the things she did as screwed up as those reasons were at times.
In season 1 it was for her love/crush on Renard she wanted to please him and also help her mother out of his debt but it was mainly for Renard as she stated in 1x17.
In season 2 it was to get revenge on ex love Renard and Nick for her losing her powers and she also had a willingness to do anything to get her powers back.
But from season 3 onwards all Adalind wanted to do is keep her children and look after them she even give up powers to in order to save her baby and Nick give her that opportunity to raise Kelly in a safe environment which is part of the reason she fell for him.
Izzy, they are not asking you to suddenly believe she’s changed, Adalind has been on a redemption arc for the last 50 episodes of grimm and it all started with Dianias birth ,you just fail to accept that change. Right after Dianias birth she falls in love with her daughter and immediately shows she’s a loving mother, Adalind then shows real compassion towards both Meisner and Sebastian and is really upset when they are forced to leave Sebastian behind. Them two moments right there are the start of her arc, she may have back slid after Diania’s kidnapping but from that moment onwards she was never quite the same evil Adalind of old.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 12:40 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Izzy, they are not asking you to suddenly believe she’s changed, Adalind has been on a redemption arc for the last 50 episodes of grimm and it all started with Dianias birth......
Giving birth is not an experience in redemption, henry. That is a complete misconception. Nick did not demand redemption from Adalind, nor did she give it.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 05:59 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Did I say it was birth that started the change in her no ,I said her love for her daughter started to change personality as I said but decideding to keep Diania was the start of her redemption arc. She becomes less selfish, in fact she is the one begging for them not to leave Sebastian alone to die. Actually being a caring mother is part of redemption and the rest is being a better person and helping others which Adalind has done.
Actually, you did.....
Quote:Izzy, they are not asking you to suddenly believe she’s changed, Adalind has been on a redemption arc for the last 50 episodes of grimm and it all started with Dianias birth
You also state a caring mother is part of redemption. It is not and even Adalind herself proved that.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 06:19 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Irk,actually my exact words are Adalind has been on a redemption arc sense Diania’s birth I didn’t say the actually birth changed her
You said it started with Diana's birth, but whatever.
I've been giving the magnanimous Adalind some thought recently and wanted to pose a purely hypothetical question as to how far she would go in order to redeem herself.
Adalind lives a comfortable life with Nick. She's lucky that Nick accepts Diana into his fome.
But what if Nick had a child of his own that also lived in the fome? Would Adalind treat Nick's child as her own?
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - Henry of green - 12-29-2017
Yes then I immediately said her love for Diania which is the start of redemption she immediately becomes nicer to the people around her after Diania’s birth like Sebastian as I also explianed you just cherry picked my post. I will always consider her first chance at unconditional love the start of her redemption.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-29-2017
Whatever.
So back to my hypothetical question. If Nick had a child, would the magnanimous Adalind accept his child as her own?
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - izzy - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 06:30 PM)irukandji Wrote: But what if Nick had a child of his own that also lived in the fome? Would Adalind treat Nick's child as her own?
Looking at the powers of a Hexebiest, it occurs to me, Adalind, especially if aided by Diana, can basically do whatever she wishes and simply cast an illusion that is drastically different than the reality and Nick would never know the difference. Consider it is not just a matter of illusion but the fact Nick eats the food Adalind (the sorceress) prepares.
It is a case where they create a creatures and then an amplified version in Diana that is capable of creating whatever reality they wish for Nick to think he dwells in.
To your question though Irukandji, no I do not think she would. I do not recall any stories of witches being particularly fond of other's children except as a meal.