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+--- Thread: When did Adalind Redeem herself? (/Thread-When-did-Adalind-Redeem-herself)
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - izzy - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 04:02 AM)Henry of green Wrote: Says you
Wow, what a sophomoric and hormone laden post, this should be fun. It appears one has an overdeveloped perception of self and one’s own opinions.
And you are correct, “says” me. My opinion and observations are based on a lifetime of experience in human interactions. The only television shows that require you suspend the reality most of us live in, in terms of human interaction, are cartoons. Just because the show is Grimm and is about the wesen world does not mean humans behave differently in the interpersonal relationships.
Quote:…there is nothing in the past 2 seasons of the show indicating Adalind was minipulating anyone
Except a lifetime of experience, the knowledge a leopard does not change it spots, and the show itself. There is a reason why addicts who understand themselves always reference themselves as an addict, even when they have been off the substance of their weakness for years. What they learn to do is channel their compulsive nature, put restraints around themselves, AND change their associations. The latter is the key. There is a reason why parolees are not allowed to associate with their old click and a reason why addicts are encouraged to form new associations. Adalind is a manipulator by nature, consciously and unconsciously it is her survival mechanism and default behavior. It is beyond incredulous to believe that Adalind was able to change her nature without altering any of her associations, the nature of the challenges in front of her, or anything else via willpower alone.
You would have to be an idiot not to see that Adalind used her sexuality to manipulate Nick. And, drum roll, what do you call not telling Nick your Hexen is back? That is not manipulation? What planet do your people come from anyways? And don't bother, it is rhetorical question, I really don’t care.
Quote:but Adalind who has murded just 2 in self defence is not redeemable
As I pointed out, unless she changes locale, changes associates, divines new ways to cope with old problems all you have is a mask, a thin veneer. That veneer is awful thin, how long did it take her to get naked for Nick in order to manipulate him? As I said a leopard does not change its spots.
Quote:As for an affair Adalind had countless opportunities to cheat on Nick with Renard but instead rejected him multiple times.
:
All I can say is, learn to read. Really. I never stated or implied Adalind had an affair. As far as I can tell she never was in a committed relationship to have an affair from. Adalind always was a whore; no man would want to claim her as his own or care who else she spread her legs for. She may have rejected Renard because she wanted to pretend she was something other than every man’s whore, but more likely, it would have simply been incongruent with the game she was running on Nick.
Quote:and somehow Monroe, a guy who has murderd countless people is redeemable
and
Quote:Monroe even admitted to hunting the real thing meaning humans to the wesen boys camp in 4x19. He also couldn’t control himself in the pilot and couldn’t go into the cabin in case he went after the child.
As I wrote earlier (before I read this section of your post) true reformations involve several steps.
channel their compulsive nature – Monroe became a detail oriented master clock crafstman/repairer and thru himself into antiques, both arenas that take a great deal of compulsive study; a classic channeling technique.
put restraints around themselves – Monroe is a Wieder Blutbaden and “stays reformed through a strict regimen of diet, drugs, and exercise”
AND change their associations – Monroe kept his own council and did not associate with other wesen until Nick dragged him back into the active wesen world.
Monroe, like Rosalee, exhibited the steps that are taken that are known to lead a successful change in life. That is how you gain redemption, by making fundamental changes in who you are.
Quote:As for Adalind being a miniplutor, Adalind has never once during the show Minipulated anyone she cares deeply about she never minipulated Renard once is season 1 beacuse she cared/ loved him and only turned against and minipulated him in later seasons beacuse he threw her away like trash in 1x17 and she no longer cared for him as much. You can think she in minipulating Nick if you wish but unfortunately it doesn’t match what we were shown on the show. 20 years is a pretty long con if you ask me.
LOL, you have to be kidding. Oh my gosh, you are killing me here. Adalind got exactly what she wanted from Nick…the con worked. I would say Nick fell for it and that Nick always was an idiot except I am not sure which party got the short end of the stick in this relationship and who the idiot truly was. And you have no idea what those 20 years were like, and either do I, you are assuming they were happy ever after. Logic would dictate they were challenging at best. I am sure Adalind always assumed she could find a guy who could throw a decent f***, so that consideration would have been easy for very circumnavigate with her well established alley-cat morality. A whole lot of people soldier on it relationships, for a variety of reasons. I certainly would not assume it was a healthy relationship for either party.
Quote:The actress playing Rosalee seems to fully suggest Rosalee sees Adalind as redemmed and changed.
I agree and concede your point, only to add, this type of judgment is precisely why we do not allow ex-addicts to become air traffic controllers or account executives in the finance industry.
Quote:Renard is infact the only main character I think hasn’t redeemed himself fully by the shows end and his actions in my opinion on the show are even worse than Juliette’s or Adalinds.
Why should he redeem himself? Do you really think he looks at the scoobies as his peer network? Why would you seek redemption among assorted rabble? He is royalty and acts it. I am sure he does not and has not troubled himself with what the scoobies think of him.
At any rate, all staged belligerence aside it was interesting dissecting your uh, thought, process.
Cheers.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - dicappatore - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 01:34 AM)izzy Wrote: There is an assumption she was ever actually considered redeemed in their eyes. Maybe, just maybe in Nick's eyes, but then again there are may couples where one partner has an affair and the marriage soldiers on, only there will never be what ever once was.
Adalind may have changed for the better, but that is not enough to atone for her past. She is different now or at least gives the appearance of so being, but that is the issue. She is a manipulator and you will never know the real Adalind.
I can see the gang, accepting her, liking her, defending her, but that does not equate to redemption as much as tolerance and a level of understanding and encouragement. The same holds true of Renard and Juliette.
The only characters that are redeemed are Monroe and Rosalee, and that is simply because we never got to witness their previous transgressions, so they started with a clean slate with the viewership. The truth of human nature is, we do not forgive and forget. Heck the majority of the borders of westward expansion of the Untied States had as an impetus the idea that it was easier to gain acceptance in a new land where you were unknown and able to start with a clean slate then attempt to exist in any arena where you opportunity was predicated upon others measure of your redemption.
FYI, there were two more seasons, well actually one and a half a season. S5 and S6. I guess you must have missed them, by your quote;
Quote:I can see the gang, accepting her, liking her, defending her, but that does not equate to redemption as much as tolerance and a level of understanding and encouragement.
If you had seen those two seasons, you would have seen it instead of your quote.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - izzy - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 05:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: You know, this is a constant among the males on the forum. But it's a complete misconception because being a good mother has no bearing whatsoever with regard to Adalind setting her feet upon the path to redemption.
Ah, I so missed the logic of my beloved little JellyFish. You are quite right of course. That is why I never considered motherhood the marker of redemption for Ms. Shade.
By the way am I the only one who considered her last name illustrious of her character?
By the by, I don't see any of the characters as having left the series as redeemed. The only one I thought once was redeemed was Monroe at the start of the show, but he was sullied by his association with Nick and then eventually even Rosalee, as she never really broke away for the weseon world as he had. It seems Monroe had managed to walk away and was dragged into it again by a sense of duty to assist the ever needy Nick. Monroe fell into the world he had sought to escape and sullied his character again.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 06:54 PM)izzy Wrote: Ah, I so missed the logic of my beloved little JellyFish. You are quite right of course. That is why I never considered motherhood the marker of redemption for Ms. Shade.
By the way am I the only one who considered her last name illustrious of her character?
Thanks, izzy. I am very glad to see you back on the forum.
I have thought about the irony of Adalind's last name as well but I could never really make it fit within the series.
(12-28-2017, 06:54 PM)izzy Wrote: By the by, I don't see any of the characters as having left the series as redeemed. The only one I thought once was redeemed was Monroe at the start of the show, but he was sullied by his association with Nick and then eventually even Rosalee, as she never really broke away for the weseon world as he had. It seems Monroe had managed to walk away and was dragged into it again by a sense of duty to assist the ever needy Nick. Monroe fell into the world he had sought to escape and sullied his character again.
Do you ever wonder if Monroe has any regrets about sliding back into the wesen world?
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - izzy - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 07:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: I have thought about the irony of Adalind's last name as well but I could never really make it fit within the series.
I figured Shade as in shady as in duplicitous as in the nature of a Hexenbiest as is the nature of Adalind.
Quote:Do you ever wonder if Monroe has any regrets about sliding back into the wesen world?
I think this deserves its own thread.
http://grimmforum.com/forum/Thread-Do-you-ever-wonder-if-Monroe-has-any-regrets-about-sliding-back-into-the-wesen-world?pid=67165#pid67165
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 07:59 PM)izzy Wrote:(12-28-2017, 07:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: I have thought about the irony of Adalind's last name as well but I could never really make it fit within the series.
I figured Shade as in shady as in duplicitous as in the nature of a Hexenbiest as is the nature of Adalind.
I was thinking of it in terms of a ghost. The Phantom of the Opera had several different personas, and one of them was the Shade.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - izzy - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 08:17 PM)irukandji Wrote:(12-28-2017, 07:59 PM)izzy Wrote:(12-28-2017, 07:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: I have thought about the irony of Adalind's last name as well but I could never really make it fit within the series.
I figured Shade as in shady as in duplicitous as in the nature of a Hexenbiest as is the nature of Adalind.
I was thinking of it in terms of a ghost. The Phantom of the Opera had several different personas, and one of them was the Shade.
Interesting, especially give the rotted corpse effect. Hmm...compelling analysis.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - Hell Rell - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 05:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: All I said is that I thought she needed to leave the comforts of the fome and depart from the gang with her children. That doesn't mean she has to take off for the Himalayas never to be heard from again. It certainly doesn't mean Nick doesn't get to see his son ever again either. I think much of redemption would come with Adalind being away from the gang and on her own, making her own decisions and weighing the consequences. Being in the comfort of the fome surrounded by the scoobies just doesn't seem like a definitive statement that Adalind's on the road to redemption.
That is exactly how she got her redemption in the eyes of Nick and the scoobies in this show. The key words being "this show". She could've taken a different route but the one she chose worked for her and them.
Once again, this was the question being asked by @wesen at the beginning of the thread. You may think she was fully redeemed in the eyes of the gang at a different point in the show but there's no question that this did happen.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - irukandji - 12-28-2017
(12-28-2017, 09:40 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(12-28-2017, 05:18 PM)irukandji Wrote: All I said is that I thought she needed to leave the comforts of the fome and depart from the gang with her children. That doesn't mean she has to take off for the Himalayas never to be heard from again. It certainly doesn't mean Nick doesn't get to see his son ever again either. I think much of redemption would come with Adalind being away from the gang and on her own, making her own decisions and weighing the consequences. Being in the comfort of the fome surrounded by the scoobies just doesn't seem like a definitive statement that Adalind's on the road to redemption.
That is exactly how she got her redemption in the eyes of Nick and the scoobies in this show. The key words being "this show". She could've taken a different route but the one she chose worked for her and them.
Once again, this was the question being asked by @wesen at the beginning of the thread. You may think she was fully redeemed in the eyes of the gang at a different point in the show but there's no question that this did happen.
I'm saying that if Adalind wanted to redeem herself, giving birth and enjoying comfort and safety isn't the road to redemption.
In response to the question, there was no redemption in the eyes of Nick and the scoobies because none was required. Adalind bargained her way into Nick's home. She exchanged the spell for protection. As for the rest of the scoobies, exactly what did Adalind do to any of them that would require them to redeem her? In a word, nothing. If anything, they were probably remembering what they did to her.
RE: When did Adalind Redeem herself? - rpmaluki - 12-28-2017
The only scoobies Adalind hurt is Hank (directly) and Wu (indirectly). She did nothing to Monroe and Rosalee.
Because my understanding of the word redemption is primarily biblical, it unfortunately doesn’t jive with how it applies to villainous characters on fictional shows who suddenly become good. To redeem/redemption means the act of saving or being saved from sin/erroneous behavior or the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment. So who is doing the saving/buying back something? Unless someone can explain to me what is meant by redemption for bad guys on TV shows. I know it's used all the time, I've come across it on plenty of shows where someone who was a villain either became one of the good guys or viewers hoped for the about turn. I guess by redemption you mean it's the individual saving themselves from sinning/doing wrong.
I think atonement is the more appropriate word to use which is to make amends for wrongdoing. Like how Adalind sold Diana but realised her error when she discovered she in fact loved her and thus did everything she could to hold on to her. The suppressant is a form of atonement (to buy Juliette a little more time as herself) even though it's payment for her own protection. Helping Nick and later Eve was atonement for the wrongs she did in the past. She helped Rosalee against Tony because Rosalee had shown her kindness around the time of Kelly's birth.
To be redeemed or to atone for past mistakes doesn't mean ostracising oneself from familiar people. It's about the individual's behavior in the present, doing a 180 by comparison to their past behavior. If Monroe stopped hanging with the people who enabled his bad behaviour, technically so did Adalind, Renard was one of the biggest influencer of Adalind's bad behaviour in S1. She no longer associates with him beyond their shared daughter. As for Nick and his friends, they were her victims as well as the people who did her wrong and they too had some atoning to do.
And I don't understand how wesen can cut themselves off from the wesen world, what does that mean exactly? There are wesen everywhere they look. This statement makes as much sense as humans cutting themselves from the world as we know it, living like hermits doesn't sound all that appealing. I'd understand if this statement was referring to Hank who's human and not a part of the wesen world, Juliette and Wu have been artificially assimilated so they are a part of this world too.