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+--- Thread: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death (/Thread-What-Juliette-Knew-Kelly-s-death)
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - New Guy - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 01:19 PM)irukandji Wrote:Iruk,(10-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Henry of green Wrote: They wanted to kill Nick that's for sure but that wasn't the main goal they're main goal was to get Diania and get rid of Kelly. I think the idea was to kill Kelly then kill Nick when his guard was down and grieving over his mother.
I disagree, Henry. Kenneth never said they wanted to get rid of Kelly. He said they wanted Diana. It's the hatred of Juliette by members of the forum who are adding that the royals wanted to get rid of Kelly.
I agree with Henry.
It is clear that Kenneth used Juliette's information to send the Verrat to kill the neighbors. As they were executed Rispoli radioed Kenneth and Juliette listened. The "plan" included" murder.
The actual aggravated assault, aggravated murder and decapitation were not filmed, but viewers could hear it and watch as Juliette waited for Kelly's anguished cries to stop:
Quote:Scene: Kelly and Diana pull up in front of Nick and Juliette's house.Iruk, please tell us where in this scene you conclude Kenneth didn't intend to kill Kelly. Also explain why Kenneth sent the Verat to kill innocent neighbors, but didn't intend to kill Kelly. Explain why Kenneth didn't intend to kill Kelly yet comes back in Nick's house with her blood on his face and her head in a box.
Juliette: [She sits on the bed and the phone rings, so she answers] Kelly?
Kelly: Juliette. Is everything okay?
Juliette: Thank God you're here. Um, Nick's not home, but I am, and the front door's unlocked. [She hangs up]
[Kelly and Diana walk up to the house]
Verrat Agent in van: It's her, Kelly Burkhardt. She's got the kid.
[Kelly and Diana enter the house]
Kelly: Juliette?
[Kelly is attacked by Kenneth and some Verrat agents as Juliette listens to the fighting from her room]
Kenneth: Let's take this outside.
[Juliette slowly walks downstairs, where she finds Diana sitting in the middle of the floor]
Juliette: Thank God. Diana. [She picks Diana up] Hey.
Kenneth: [He comes back inside with blood on his face] We got her. [Looking at Diana] And we've got her.
His actions speak louder than words.
What line from a transcript or act performed by Kenneth even remotely alludes to him not intending to murder Kelly? You say "Kenneth never said they wanted to get rid of Kelly." That is true. He also never said he wanted Rispoli to kill the neighbors. Lacking any transcript showing such statements the only credible evidence is what happened. It is a fact Kenneth and the Verrat murdered them all. It is a fact the Verrat acted on orders from Kenneth. It is a fact that Juliette was a material participant in all the murders. Lacking Juliette's betrayal of Kelly, Kenneth could not have perpetrated those heinous crimes.
Iruk, you have presented your opinion, but the weight of the factual evidence is formidable.
N G
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - irukandji - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 04:54 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(10-29-2017, 12:38 PM)irukandji Wrote: Yet they prepared for a mini-war, not a simple transfer of Diana from Kelly to the royals.
They knew fighting Kelly would be equivalent to fighting a mini-war. They knew she was dangerous because they know she single-handedly took out six members of the Verrat to get Diana out of Austria and it didn't take her long to do it. All of those troops were there for Kelly and to get possession of the most prized snowflake in the world even if Kelly showed up there herself.
Grimms in general are dangerous and they knew Kelly was beyond an average Grimm. Nick sent the heads of two reapers overseas in season one and Kelly just did something that was even more impressive.
All true, but there are a couple of things being forgotten here. One, Kelly would be bringing Diana, so she's not going to be the killer grimm. A mini-war against one woman grimm and a toddler makes no sense.
Next, they expected Nick to show up. Nick isn't going to show up alone. Hence preparing the neighborhood for a mini-war.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - Hell Rell - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 05:41 PM)irukandji Wrote:(10-29-2017, 04:54 PM)Hell Rell Wrote:(10-29-2017, 12:38 PM)irukandji Wrote: Yet they prepared for a mini-war, not a simple transfer of Diana from Kelly to the royals.
They knew fighting Kelly would be equivalent to fighting a mini-war. They knew she was dangerous because they know she single-handedly took out six members of the Verrat to get Diana out of Austria and it didn't take her long to do it. All of those troops were there for Kelly and to get possession of the most prized snowflake in the world even if Kelly showed up there herself.
Grimms in general are dangerous and they knew Kelly was beyond an average Grimm. Nick sent the heads of two reapers overseas in season one and Kelly just did something that was even more impressive.
All true, but there are a couple of things being forgotten here. One, Kelly would be bringing Diana, so she's not going to be the killer grimm.
Next, they expected Nick to show up. Nick isn't going to show up alone. Hence preparing the neighborhood for a mini-war.
Kelly would be the killer Grimm to prevent Diana from being taken and they knew it. She was just that to get Diana in the first place so there's no way she wouldn't be to keep her. Juliette told them not to underestimate her and Kenneth assured her they would not hence the small army being assembled to take her on.
On the other issue, I'm not certain whether they expected Nick to show up when Kelly was there or not so it's open to interpretation. I thought they were expecting for only Juliette to be at the house when Kelly showed up but took precautions in case anyone else did which is why they followed Trubel. I get the impression that their main priority was to ambush Kelly alone while Nick was away and attack him when he came back home later on.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - Robyn - 10-29-2017
I thought all the preparation was in anticipation of Kelly’s arrival with Diana, mainly because I got the impression that King Frederick was tired all the failed attempts to get his granddaughter, as well as other failures with the Grimm, Renard, and the Resistance in general. Kenneth appeared to understand that he would only get one chance before joining Viktor’s fate.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - rpmaluki - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 02:06 PM)Robyn Wrote:I'm not convinced Meisner kept Diana away from Adalind for her safety. She was potentially a powerful weapon that everyone except Adalind and maybe even Renard wanted to use for her powers to further their agenda, that's Kelly, the Resistance, HW, the Royals. Meisner was no different from these, he had his own agenda so he withheld vital information from Adalind, sharing it only with Renard because at the time, Renard was only too happy to continue with the status quo of mother and daughter apart.(10-29-2017, 12:31 PM)Henry of green Wrote: I think she hated the fact Kelly stole her daughter Robyn ,but she hated even more the idea of the Royals having her because she knew just how messed up the Royals were and didn't want them anywhere near Diania. I also think Adalind was trying to get in nicks good graces but I never got the feeling not even when she was talking to victor that she ever hated Kelly.I don’t think anything Adalind did after Diana was born was spurred by hate or revenge, rather, a mother taking desperate measures to find one child while keeping another safe. Consider the S4 ending with a slightly different chain of events:
Someone storms Bud’s house and takes Adalind to rendezvous with Meisner who has already taken Diana and killed the King. Adalind might be terrified while temporarily in the hands of strangers, but once she realized Meisner has Diana and is waiting for her to join them on the helicopter, terror would turn to relief and gratitude.
Is it more likely Adalind would regret Kelly’s death and that Nick won’t get to father a child he only has because he stole her first child - OR - that she would count her lucky stars that Meisner came back into her life and provided safety to her and both children?
The situation Adalind was forced into might have made her care more than she would have otherwise, but Adalind wasn’t suddenly concerned about the wellbeing of the people who stole her daughter other than their wellbeing was detrimental to her and the children’s safety. If Adalind had viable options other than baby-steeling Team Grimm, I don’t think she would have given them a second thought other than signing off with sayonara as Team Grimm and the Royals killed each other off.
(10-29-2017, 02:35 PM)Henry of green Wrote: I agree with most of this Robyn ,but there is not a chance of Miesner doing this I think he would have kept Diania away from Adalind like he did in season 5. The mission always came first for Miesner so I don't see how going to him would do her any good. It seemed like no one wanted her to have her own child ,I mean it was her own child's father who give her away for crying out loud.There's that blue blood test that they performed on Diana in utero,Kelly would have failed that test dismally long before his birth.
I think Adalind as early as late season 4 had decided the scobbies were her and her sons best chance of survival. Thought I think if she had of been able to get victor into Bed and convinced him some how the baby was his , nick would never even knew he had a son. Given how much grown up Kelly looks like Nick she wouldn't have gotten away with it for too long but she would be secure for a while at least but then again she still wouldn't have Diania.
(10-29-2017, 04:37 PM)Robyn Wrote: I think so too. I don’t think the writers did a good job progressing Nick/Adalind, but don’t doubt that their intent was for them to be in a loving, committed relationship before the show’s end.Adalind's feelings for Nick didn't only spring from not having options and having to rely on him. I think it was mostly his kindness. They rightfully had a turbulent relationship prior to Kelly's and nobody would blame either for doing what they had always done. Adalind decided to set aside her anger and Nick surprisingly did the same. It was his kindness that did the heavy lifting in causing her to have feelings (although I'm convinced she'd long been attracted to him even as bad Adalind, but had no desire to actually have him).
But my point is the same - The show presented Adalind loving and trusting Nick, but it also presented Nick as her only option from the time she went to him at the end of S4 until the show ended in S6. And while I agree that Adalind loved Nick, I question if she would simply because they had a child together. Had Adalind been written as becoming more independent, getting a job, making a life for herself and Kelly, actively looking for her daughter, etc., would Adalind falling desperately in love with Nick still be the assumption? It’s easy to direct all your attention and energy to family if there’s absolutely nothing else in your life. And that was Adalind’s life for two seasons - Nick and Kelly in S5 and Nick, Kelly, and Diana in S6.
Moving into the loft is a byproduct of their choices and that includes their growing feelings for one another. What happens with Adalind does happen also with Nick (but from a different perspective) only he's a lot more reserved than she is. Adalind didn't have options immediately after Kelly's birth but this wouldn't and didn't remain for long, independence was within her reach and could have left him if the feelings were strictly one sided but they weren't.
(10-29-2017, 05:06 PM)Hexenadler Wrote:what does it matter when everything the characters do is because the writers said so. The characters have zero autonomy and dance at the writers tune whether we like it or not. The writers aren't documenting the lives and times of real individuals, they make up stories around their made up characters, nothing more. You write fanfiction, as I have done myself. Don't you determine what the characters do according to your own individual prejudice irrespective of what their original creators wrote?(10-29-2017, 04:54 PM)brandon Wrote: Nick's love by Adalind is pure,very different from Sean and his mother.
Only because the writers said so. Absolutely nothing prior on the show gave the slightest indication they belonged together. When they hooked up, the series dropped dead. There were other factors involved, but "Nadalind" was the primary reason behind Grimm's cancellation.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - Devegs - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 12:38 PM)irukandji Wrote: Yet they prepared for a mini-war, not a simple transfer of Diana from Kelly to the royals.
You said it! The royals did not expect or prepare for a simple transfer of Diana.
Therefore you told us:
(10-29-2017, 12:57 PM)irukandji Wrote: They did because they expected a mini-battle with more than just Kelly.
(10-29-2017, 01:02 PM)irukandji Wrote: They expected Nick.
So we add Nick into the mix. You also gave us the reason for why the royals prepared this heavily for Nick and Kelly that night.
(10-28-2017, 06:03 PM)irukandji Wrote: Didn't they want Nick dead?
So, do I surmise that you believe that they (Kenneth and Juliette) did plan on at least one murder that night? I guess not Kelly's but Nick's. I'm thinking they'd probably hobble Kelly while they finish Nick off... just for giggles. Then untie her and walk away with Diana.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - irukandji - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 08:13 PM)Devegs Wrote: So, do I surmise that you believe that they (Kenneth and Juliette) did plan on at least one murder that night? I guess not Kelly's but Nick's. I'm thinking they'd probably hobble Kelly while they finish Nick off... just for giggles. Then untie her and walk away with Diana.
When I referenced, "they", I was talking about Kenneth and the royals. There's no evidence I can see that pointed to Juliette knowing and planning any murders. However, Juliette gave Kenneth information on the neighbors and from what I recall, there was a large number of verrat around. So while she didn't know or plan on a specific murder, she would have been aware that Kenneth and the royals were planning for a battle.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - Renardfan99 - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 09:02 PM)irukandji Wrote:(10-29-2017, 08:13 PM)Devegs Wrote: So, do I surmise that you believe that they (Kenneth and Juliette) did plan on at least one murder that night? I guess not Kelly's but Nick's. I'm thinking they'd probably hobble Kelly while they finish Nick off... just for giggles. Then untie her and walk away with Diana.
When I referenced, "they", I was talking about Kenneth and the royals. There's no evidence I can see that pointed to Juliette knowing and planning any murders. However, Juliette gave Kenneth information on the neighbors and from what I recall, there was a large number of verrat around. So while she didn't know or plan on a specific murder, she would have been aware that Kenneth and the royals were planning for a battle.
Lawd. I came out of lurking mode to respond to this comment. Juliette knew darned well that the Royal's tried repeatedly to kill Renard and his mother and even mentioned that FACT to the King after he saw Diana, so of course she knew they were planning on killing Kelly. Juliette wanted to hurt Nick and chose to help the Royal's and was complicit in the deaths of her neighbors and Kelly Burkhardt. The truth is, Juliette should have stayed dead at the end of s4!
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - rpmaluki - 10-29-2017
(10-29-2017, 09:02 PM)irukandji Wrote:She still participated in their murders (however indirectly) by willingly volunteering information to the said killers who's intention was extremely nefarious, whether she was fully aware of those murderous intentions before they were physically carried out or not. She was there the whole time (what did she imagine Rispoli and his men were up to?) The neighbours were the first to go before Kelly showed up, if Juliette disproved of Kenneth’s murderous actions, she had plenty of time to voice her objection to his plan long before Kelly showed up. She didn't with the neighbours. She didn't with Kelly. She was extremely powerful and could have save everyone singlehandedly. She was compliant by her inaction to stop the first murders after compromising several of her neighbours who had done her no wrong and equally complaint when she remained upstairs listening to the fighting and coming down only after Kelly had died to pick up Diana so she and Kenneth could meet up with Frederick. Juliette is far from guiltless of everything that happened that night.(10-29-2017, 08:13 PM)Devegs Wrote: So, do I surmise that you believe that they (Kenneth and Juliette) did plan on at least one murder that night? I guess not Kelly's but Nick's. I'm thinking they'd probably hobble Kelly while they finish Nick off... just for giggles. Then untie her and walk away with Diana.
When I referenced, "they", I was talking about Kenneth and the royals. There's no evidence I can see that pointed to Juliette knowing and planning any murders. However, Juliette gave Kenneth information on the neighbors and from what I recall, there was a large number of verrat around. So while she didn't know or plan on a specific murder, she would have been aware that Kenneth and the royals were planning for a battle.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - dicappatore - 10-29-2017
When some arguments are basically ridiculous and borderline insane, since I lack a degree in Phycology, best I can assess is borderline. You have to start to wonder, Is this reasoning possible? I am thinking the site admin placed a plant to make such ludicrous comments using outlandish analysis.
It is keeping some threads to go on and on and on. Can it be that someone could be so stubborn without any iota of proof to support their opinions possible? I think not! As I see it, is a spoiled child throwing a tantrum because they can’t get what they want. It has to be fake. Something to ponder about.