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+--- Thread: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death (/Thread-What-Juliette-Knew-Kelly-s-death)
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - dicappatore - 11-13-2017
(11-12-2017, 10:06 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Juliette had been a hexenbiest about two full years by the end of the series because she became a hexenbiest in spring of 2015 and she was still one in spring of 2017. Adalind has been one for at least 20 years as she was born in 1985, so yes it’s pretty obvious to anyone that she knows far more than Eve about being one , they are the facts nothing to debate.
Henry, I wonder if anyone making such a ridiculous argument about these two characters on their spell knowledge to be the same, makes one wonder if, you shine a flash light in one ear, I bet light will come out of the other.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - irukandji - 11-13-2017
(11-13-2017, 01:59 AM)dicappatore Wrote: Henry, I wonder if anyone making such a ridiculous argument about these two characters on their spell knowledge to be the same, makes one wonder if, you shine a flash light in one ear, I bet light will come out of the other.
Why don't you try making an argument instead of criticizing? Or are you unable to think of anything on your own?
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - Robyn - 11-13-2017
Quote:For someone who enjoyed S1 and S2 Adalind, I can see the frustration with her story in the last two seasons. Unfortunately, I have no such problems. I see it as positive character development and as someone who never had problems with her relationship with Nick, I'm cool with how the show ended. If Adalind was to end up with either one of the three men (Sean, Meisner and Nick), I'm glad it was Nick. Sean would have been a step backwards and Meisner didn't seem like someone who would give up his mercenary type of life. Nick was the only one in sync with Adalind because they genuinely wanted the same things in life. The only hurdle was their past and the show didn't wholly disregard it and conveniently used it to put stumbling blocks in a relationship that clicked sooner than expected.For me, it goes beyond the stark contrast of Adalind’s S1-S2 and S5-S6 personalities. Adalind was noticeably different after Diana was born in S3, so the transition was taking place long before the conception of Nick/Adalind was revealed to viewers. So it’s not that Adalind became focused on her children that struck me as strange or out of place, because Diana initiated a profound and positive affect on her overall evolution.
Whether intentional or another fluke G & K realized afterwards, Adalind was written as predisposed to a relationship and becoming a part of Nick’s circle at the beginning of the second S5 episode. And from there, Nick and his son became the center of her world. But I think that may have had more to do with Nick being the center/focus of the show than a statement about Adalind. Because it was much the same with Juliette, her woes were often more about their emotional impact on Nick than Juliette. And while that’s the format for a central character surrounded by supporting characters, it can be difficult to distinguish what’s actually about a supporting character and what’s about that supporting character’s impact on the central character. Sorry, I know that was a mouth full of words.
I don’t think we should infuse what we know as viewers with what a character knows. I will always think Nick and the gang was wrong to take Diana from Adalind regardless of their reason for doing so. But. I understand that Nick didn’t have a clue about Adalind’s experience with Diana earlier in S3, and only saw her as the same vicious thorn in his side, which helped confirm that his mother was a better option than Adalind.
But the same latitude should be given to Adalind’s lack of knowledge concerning Meisner taking Diana and not telling her. The only thing Adalind knew for sure was that Meisner was the first person to help her without wanting something in return. That and her expected determination to rescue Diana from the Royals should have been sufficient to prompt her reaching out to him. Besides, she trusted and loved Nick despite him taking Diana, so learning Meisner also took Diana shouldn’t have automatically lowered her level of trust. But just as Nick had no way of knowing that Adalind would have been agreeable and proactive in keeping Diana safe, Adalind didn’t have any reason to assume Nick and his friends were helping her for any reason other than it was his son in need of protection. Because from where Adalind was standing, when she showed up needing protection for the child that wasn’t Nick’s, they couldn’t get rid of it fast enough.
That said, I know G & K wrote a very concise story about Nick defeating BC and saving Adalind and the children. And while Adalind proactively working to get Diana back wouldn’t have necessarily derailed their Nick saves the day story, it would have added complications that G & K probably didn’t want to deal with just for the sake of continuing a supporting character’s evolution.
edited to add:
Another theory I still mull over occassionaly is based on my original take on Adalind. While many saw her as vicious and vindictive, I sized her up as ‘a little girl lost, emotionally damaged and with daddy issues, who was constantly searching for someone/something. And based on how G & K took her through various stages, perhaps Adalind coming full circle was that she finally found in Nick what she’d been searching for - the knight in shining amour that would save her.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - Robyn - 11-13-2017
Quote:Nick and his friends were helping Adalind out of their own choice Meisner's job was to help Adalind that's the difference Robyn ,he was a merceny, I doubt he would have helped Adalind in the first place if it wasn't his job. From Adalinds point of view Nick was her best chance for survival because they share a child, Adalind and Miesner don't have that in common I thinks that's her reasoning for trusting Nick nore than Meisner.Okay, let’s go with this. What was the difference in their motivation to help Adalind be a part of one child’s life and not the other?
I agree that from Adalind’s point of view at the end of S4, Nick was her & the baby’s best chance for survival. She had something to barter with that she believed would be important to Nick. Adalind and Renard were barely civil to one another earlier in S3, but he helped her because she was pregnant with his child. For Adalind, it stood to reason that Nick would have the same response.
Adalind appeared to trust Nick more than Meisner, or anyone, before learning Meisner had taken Diana. At that point, Adalind knew Nick had taken Diana from her, but she didn’t know Meisner had taken Diana from the King. So why did she trust Nick more than Meisner at that point?
When I spoke of the difference between what the characters and viewers know, I was referring to how the characters’ knowledge, or lack of, influenced their decisions. So while I agree that Adalind’s decision to trust Nick might have been correct in the end, I don’t see Adalind having a basis for trusting Nick more than Meisner at that point in their living arrangement. Because it wasn’t a relationship at that point, they were at best civil and respectful of each other’s needs. So all I’m left with is that Nick is the Grimm/leading male character/hero/protagonist/etc. and Meisner is the guy who will be the sacrificial death for the season.
But it’s not all about Adalind eagerly trusting Nick. I think it’s equally strange that the writers didn’t have Nick worried that Adalind would take off with Kelly to find Diana the minute she was financially prepared to do so. I thought it strange that Nick didn’t make the connection between Meisner helping Adalind with Diana and now being in Portland and accessible to Adalind. When Meisner showed up, Nick and Adalind were focused on making their arrangement work because it was necessary, not because they wanted to live together. Plus, Nick didn’t know anything about Meisner except what Adalind and Trubel might have told him. So why wouldn’t Nick at least consider the possibility that Adalind might go to Meisner and he/the Resistance would again help her and both children escape and hide from the Royals - and from him?
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - rpmaluki - 11-13-2017
All I can say to that is she didn't go with Meisner because he wasn't offering and she wasn't interested. Meisner didn't actually become an option for Adalind. He couldn't, at least not before she found out he was responsible for the Royals missing out on Diana and by then she was in love with Nick (and I'm sure Diana had already ended up with BC or nearly almost). If he'd initially offered to bring her to Diana when he first goes to the loft, it would have been just as difficult for her to leave Nick but for different reasons than what actually aired. We know she left Nick because BC threatened her and thus did it because she wasn't willing to chance anyone getting hurt, including Nick.
After Kelly's birth, Adalind had practically pledged to start afresh with Nick (asking him to do the same) and that meant working together for Kelly's sake, Meisner would have likely taken Adalind into hiding, basically taking Nick's son away permanently in order to keep Diana and thus Adalind safe from anyone who wanted to use Diana for nefarious purposes, an inadvertent fulfilling of the original plan with mama Kelly but now with baby Kelly in the mix. There's no way Nick doesn't go after his son, he almost did with BC but HW talked him out of it citing Kelly's safety and Nick doing something stupid to get himself killed for it. I know she basically did the same thing on the show and left Nick but that was with the expectancy of a reunion while with Meisner, Nick stood to lose his son forever.
Before Kelly's birth, Adalind wouldn't have had issues with that plan to disappear with whomever ensured she had both children with her but after the events of the last episode of S4/first episode of S5 and Nick stepping up, walking away from Nick wouldn't have been a simple cake walk despite the lack of a romantic entanglement between. Maybe I'm giving Adalind too much credit but I like to think once she made up her mind about not just doing what was best for Diana but Kelly also, that she actually meant it. If she couldn’t protect Kelly herself, who better to do so than his father and Nick had gone above and beyond for a woman he didn't even like. She took her chances with him who had just as much to lose if something happened to at least one of her children.
As for Nick, he wasn't worried about her disappearing with Kelly because at the beginning she had no friends, or allies or any resources. Sean had distanced himself, she still had the Royals as enemies, Adalind literally had nowhere else to go. When she shows interest in possibly going back to work, he wasn't thrilled but they played it up as it being too soon to leave Kelly for the workplace.
After it became clear their relationship was changing into something more, why would she leave him? The only time this is an issue is when they consider her powers returning. They both thought the other would kick them out or maybe take Kelly away or even kill the other. Nick never worries about it beyond this conversation because Adalind keeps quiet about her powers returning and Rosalee convinces Nick to not act rashly after discovering the truth and implores him to allow Adalind to come to him with the truth.
Nick is watchful because the scene after, at the precinct with Hank, they talk about how he's not getting enough sleep because Adalind's powers had returned. The show didn't spell it out but he was concerned. I believe the show was more concerned with building up Nick and Adalind that's why he didn't react the same way he had with Juliette and why he slept with her after discovering the truth. Nick wanted to trust Adalind so he did nothing. When she eventually confessed, that alleviated his fears but then BC showed up. Even then, he blamed Sean/BC for Adalind taking Kelly away.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - New Guy - 11-13-2017
Greetings Forum,
I have been reading today's posts. It seems (and I agree) that what should be lively, intelligent debate on the Forum turns into hostile personal attacks. Several Forum members have expressed a desire that we be more cordial and I agree.
That said, I wish to return to discussion about the topic of this thread, "What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death."
In criminal and civil law, guilt is proven by "Weight of Evidence."
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/weight+of+evidence
As a Police Detective, Nick has an understanding of "evidence" and how it is used in a trial. As a Grimm, Nick at times serves as judge, jury and executioner.
As viewers, we have access to more factual evidence than Nick. At the end of 4.21, "Headache" the evidence Nick has is his mother's recently severed head in a box. Trubel and Hank also view the "evidence." It is a fact that she has been brutally murdered. Nick has several other facts available to assemble evidence and bring the guilty perpetrators to justice.
In 4.22, "Cry Havoc" Nick and the Scoobies prepare an assault on the perpetrators and Trubel asks:
Quote:Trubel: Nick, if we do find Juliette, what do you want us to do?Then at the end of the episode Nick returns to his home and Juliette shows up:
Nick: Kill her.
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.In 5.07, "Eve of Destruction" Nick has a brief chat with FrankenEve including:
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
Nick: You betrayed her! [He grabs her and pins her against a wall to choke her]
Juliette: [Gasping] Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it. [She gasps more. Nick lets go of her and she catches her breath] You can't put me out of your misery, huh? I hope you're not going to tell me you're still in love with me.
Nick: Get out.
Juliette: After everything I've done for you, you think that's how we're gonna end it? You should have killed me when you had the chance.
Quote:Nick: [He goes inside and looks around until he spots Juliette sitting in the back. He pauses and then goes to her table. He sighs] I thought you were dead. [He sits down and exhales] Oh, Juliette.As viewers, we have additional evidence. Several Forum members have posted such evidence.
Eve: My name isn't Juliette.
Nick: What am I supposed to call you?
Eve: They call me Eve.
Nick: Why Eve?
Eve: Because I'm starting over.
Nick: Do you really think it's that easy?
Eve: It wasn't easy.
Nick: You want to know what isn't easy? Knowing that you set me up... and that you set up my mother. What, are you gonna pretend like you don't remember?
Eve: I remember everything. I would have killed you.
IMO, Nick holds Juliette responsible for the murder of his mother. That is why he told the Scoobies to "kill her." Note also that none of them questioned his order. Note that it is after she tells him "I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that" when he grabs her by the throat and beguns to strangle her. IMO, Nick heard that as a total lie. In addition, he confronts FrankenEve saying "you set up my mother."
Nick could tell she had used his computer, but we saw the actual email. Nick knew she had been with Kenneth, but we saw and heard her in the hotel giving intel about the neighbors while the Verrat loaded guns. We saw more evidence of her involvement than Nick.
The factual evidence is compelling. It seems that Nick, using less evidence than viewers had, found her guilty of murder. Juliette's statements " Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it." and "You should have killed me when you had the chance." could indicate she knows her guilt and deserves to die for what she did.
N G
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - brandon - 11-13-2017
Juliette was quite capable of thinking for herself, to realize that would make Ken.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - irukandji - 11-13-2017
(11-13-2017, 12:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: Greetings Forum,
I have been reading today's posts. It seems (and I agree) that what should be lively, intelligent debate on the Forum turns into hostile personal attacks. Several Forum members have expressed a desire that we be more cordial and I agree.
That said, I wish to return to discussion about the topic of this thread, "What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death."
In criminal and civil law, guilt is proven by "Weight of Evidence."
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/weight+of+evidence
As a Police Detective, Nick has an understanding of "evidence" and how it is used in a trial. As a Grimm, Nick at times serves as judge, jury and executioner.
As viewers, we have access to more factual evidence than Nick. At the end of 4.21, "Headache" the evidence Nick has is his mother's recently severed head in a box. Trubel and Hank also view the "evidence." It is a fact that she has been brutally murdered. Nick has several other facts available to assemble evidence and bring the guilty perpetrators to justice.
In 4.22, "Cry Havoc" Nick and the Scoobies prepare an assault on the perpetrators and Trubel asks:
Quote:Trubel: Nick, if we do find Juliette, what do you want us to do?Then at the end of the episode Nick returns to his home and Juliette shows up:
Nick: Kill her.
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.In 5.07, "Eve of Destruction" Nick has a brief chat with FrankenEve including:
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
Nick: You betrayed her! [He grabs her and pins her against a wall to choke her]
Juliette: [Gasping] Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it. [She gasps more. Nick lets go of her and she catches her breath] You can't put me out of your misery, huh? I hope you're not going to tell me you're still in love with me.
Nick: Get out.
Juliette: After everything I've done for you, you think that's how we're gonna end it? You should have killed me when you had the chance.
Quote:Nick: [He goes inside and looks around until he spots Juliette sitting in the back. He pauses and then goes to her table. He sighs] I thought you were dead. [He sits down and exhales] Oh, Juliette.As viewers, we have additional evidence. Several Forum members have posted such evidence.
Eve: My name isn't Juliette.
Nick: What am I supposed to call you?
Eve: They call me Eve.
Nick: Why Eve?
Eve: Because I'm starting over.
Nick: Do you really think it's that easy?
Eve: It wasn't easy.
Nick: You want to know what isn't easy? Knowing that you set me up... and that you set up my mother. What, are you gonna pretend like you don't remember?
Eve: I remember everything. I would have killed you.
IMO, Nick holds Juliette responsible for the murder of his mother. That is why he told the Scoobies to "kill her." Note also that none of them questioned his order. Note that it is after she tells him "I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that" when he grabs her by the throat and beguns to strangle her. IMO, Nick heard that as a total lie. In addition, he confronts FrankenEve saying "you set up my mother."
Nick could tell she had used his computer, but we saw the actual email. Nick knew she had been with Kenneth, but we saw and heard her in the hotel giving intel about the neighbors while the Verrat loaded guns. We saw more evidence of her involvement than Nick.
The factual evidence is compelling. It seems that Nick, using less evidence than viewers had, found her guilty of murder. Juliette's statements " Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it." and "You should have killed me when you had the chance." could indicate she knows her guilt and deserves to die for what she did.
N G
I'm in agreement with intelligent discussion too, New Guy, and if you want to debate with me, I have a question about something I saw in your post. I will no longer make any mean comments about Merriam-Webster, etc., and will read your posts all the way through and respond peer to peer.
You know my position on Nick. He took an oath as a police officer to serve and protect. I know the show is Grimm and he's a grimm, but in my opinion, his oath as an LEO supercedes anything he chooses to make up so that he can call himself a grimm. So I cannot agree with Nick being judge, jury and executioner. That means his oath, which is his word, is no good and that means he is no good. After all, what is a man without his word?
You mentioned that Nick told the scoobies to kill Juliette and this raised a question in my mind. Does Nick have the right to order others to do his killing for him?
(11-13-2017, 12:43 PM)brandon Wrote: Juliette was quite capable of thinking for herself, to realize that would make Ken.
Not according to Adalind. She was the one who told Rosalee the hexenbiest was in control. How she'd know this, I have no idea. However, the statement was apparently made to give the audience an idea of what pairing up with a hexenbiest is like.
So, if the hexenbiest is in control, then it apparently has the ability to control its host's thoughts. Could Juliette really be able to think for herself if an entity like the biest spirit paired up with her without her permission?
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - irukandji - 11-13-2017
(11-13-2017, 05:33 PM)Henry of green Wrote: Irk, this is just a question ,do you have as much a problem with Sean as you do Nick because he also took an oath and is far more corrupt than Nick and has also murdered people and covered it up. Sean was also involved in a number of illegal rackets especially in the first season, in season 5 he literally ran with a terroist group while still a police captain and Mayor elect.
henry, I agree with you that Sean is corrupt. But he's been corrupt since the series began. Nick was not. He started out as an LEO that was on the right side of the law.
RE: What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death - dicappatore - 11-13-2017
(11-13-2017, 12:11 PM)New Guy Wrote: Greetings Forum,
I have been reading today's posts. It seems (and I agree) that what should be lively, intelligent debate on the Forum turns into hostile personal attacks. Several Forum members have expressed a desire that we be more cordial and I agree.
That said, I wish to return to discussion about the topic of this thread, "What Juliette 'Knew': Kelly's death."
In criminal and civil law, guilt is proven by "Weight of Evidence."
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/weight+of+evidence
As a Police Detective, Nick has an understanding of "evidence" and how it is used in a trial. As a Grimm, Nick at times serves as judge, jury and executioner.
As viewers, we have access to more factual evidence than Nick. At the end of 4.21, "Headache" the evidence Nick has is his mother's recently severed head in a box. Trubel and Hank also view the "evidence." It is a fact that she has been brutally murdered. Nick has several other facts available to assemble evidence and bring the guilty perpetrators to justice.
In 4.22, "Cry Havoc" Nick and the Scoobies prepare an assault on the perpetrators and Trubel asks:
Quote:Trubel: Nick, if we do find Juliette, what do you want us to do?Then at the end of the episode Nick returns to his home and Juliette shows up:
Nick: Kill her.
Quote:Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.In 5.07, "Eve of Destruction" Nick has a brief chat with FrankenEve including:
Nick: She trusted you.
Juliette: I know. I thought they just wanted Diana.
Nick: You betrayed her! [He grabs her and pins her against a wall to choke her]
Juliette: [Gasping] Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it. [She gasps more. Nick lets go of her and she catches her breath] You can't put me out of your misery, huh? I hope you're not going to tell me you're still in love with me.
Nick: Get out.
Juliette: After everything I've done for you, you think that's how we're gonna end it? You should have killed me when you had the chance.
Quote:Nick: [He goes inside and looks around until he spots Juliette sitting in the back. He pauses and then goes to her table. He sighs] I thought you were dead. [He sits down and exhales] Oh, Juliette.As viewers, we have additional evidence. Several Forum members have posted such evidence.
Eve: My name isn't Juliette.
Nick: What am I supposed to call you?
Eve: They call me Eve.
Nick: Why Eve?
Eve: Because I'm starting over.
Nick: Do you really think it's that easy?
Eve: It wasn't easy.
Nick: You want to know what isn't easy? Knowing that you set me up... and that you set up my mother. What, are you gonna pretend like you don't remember?
Eve: I remember everything. I would have killed you.
IMO, Nick holds Juliette responsible for the murder of his mother. That is why he told the Scoobies to "kill her." Note also that none of them questioned his order. Note that it is after she tells him "I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that" when he grabs her by the throat and beguns to strangle her. IMO, Nick heard that as a total lie. In addition, he confronts FrankenEve saying "you set up my mother."
Nick could tell she had used his computer, but we saw the actual email. Nick knew she had been with Kenneth, but we saw and heard her in the hotel giving intel about the neighbors while the Verrat loaded guns. We saw more evidence of her involvement than Nick.
The factual evidence is compelling. It seems that Nick, using less evidence than viewers had, found her guilty of murder. Juliette's statements " Do it, Nick. Kill me. Just do it. Do it." and "You should have killed me when you had the chance." could indicate she knows her guilt and deserves to die for what she did.
N G
NG, I have stated on a few posts that IMO, Juliette was well aware of many possible deaths would occur that night, including Kelly’s. When she tells Nick:
Juliette: I didn't know Kenneth was gonna do that.
She was referring to the Head-in-the-Box scenario. You Juliette fans can’t have it both ways. Was Juliette an intelligent intuitive woman that became a Hexenbiest or was she a dumb-ass naive pollyanna loose cannon that, if a box was delivered at her abode, with an arrow pointing up, with the words, “This end up” she would ask Nick, Hey Honey, which end is up?
P.S. Nice factual research, as expected!