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+--- Thread: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience (/Thread-Why-Juliette-as-a-character-didn-t-click-with-the-audience)
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - Hexenadler - 09-19-2017
(09-18-2017, 05:03 PM)wesen Wrote: If your scenario had played out between Juliette and Nick , it would just be Renard 2.0 in his interactions with both Adalind and Juliette. I would think it would go against Nick's character to have that kind of chaotic sadomasochist relationship with Juliette, he's too much of a gentleman/strait-laced. Nick as a lover strikes me as someone who would be passionate but tender/gentle with the person he loves, he'd probably call sex making love. I don't think there's anything kinky about him at all.
I think you're speaking from a limited understanding of human beings. People are more complicated than you believe. Nick can be a gentleman to Juliette/Adalind one minute, the next he'd be tearing a wesen's head clean off its shoulders. If Nick and Juliette had stayed together, he would have been able to give Juliette both sides of his personality; the gentleman in public, and the savage Grimm in private.
Basically, he would have been "Renard 2.0" only in the sense of having integrity to accompany his bouts of darkness. Renard in general was a semi-callous and morally shady man, even by the end of he show. So, the comparison is inaccurate.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - rpmaluki - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 06:24 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:But Nick doesn't treat his personal relationships like he treats criminal wesen. That's two very distinct and very different things. The fact that he longed for family at the beginning of the show and worked to hold on to it at the end of the show shows that in this area he's very rigid and reserved but he's no longer the straight laced cop wanting to do things by the book at the end of the show like we saw him at the very beginning. He "Grimms" out more times now than he acts as a cop and the difference is glaring. Human nature is unpredictable I give you that but Nick being into a bit of a sadomasochist relationship is baseless and extremely OOC based on what we have seen of the character in six years, even when he was with Adalind who was a freak in bed (see her Renard couplings), Nick never acted outside this predetermined aspect of his personality.(09-18-2017, 05:03 PM)wesen Wrote: If your scenario had played out between Juliette and Nick , it would just be Renard 2.0 in his interactions with both Adalind and Juliette. I would think it would go against Nick's character to have that kind of chaotic sadomasochist relationship with Juliette, he's too much of a gentleman/strait-laced. Nick as a lover strikes me as someone who would be passionate but tender/gentle with the person he loves, he'd probably call sex making love. I don't think there's anything kinky about him at all.
I think you're speaking from a limited understanding of human beings. People are more complicated than you believe. Nick can be a gentleman to Juliette/Adalind one minute, the next he'd be tearing a wesen's head clean off its shoulders. If Nick and Juliette had stayed together, he would have been able to give Juliette both sides of his personality; the gentleman in public, and the savage Grimm in private.
Basically, he would have been "Renard 2.0" only in the sense of having integrity to accompany his bouts of darkness. Renard in general was a semi-callous and morally shady man, even by the end of he show. So, the comparison is inaccurate.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - Hexenadler - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 06:38 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: But Nick doesn't treat his personal relationships like he treats criminal wesen. That's two very distinct and very different things. The fact that he longed for family at the beginning of the show and worked to hold on to it at the end of the show shows that in this area he's very rigid and reserved but he's no longer the straight laced cop wanting to do things by the book at the end of the show like we saw him at the very beginning. He "Grimms" out more times now than he acts as a cop and the difference is glaring. Human nature is unpredictable I give you that but Nick being into a bit of a sadomasochist relationship is baseless and extremely OOC based on what we have seen of the character in six years, even when he was with Adalind who was a freak in bed (see her Renard couplings), Nick never acted outside this predetermined aspect of his personality.
It's no more baseless than Nick hunkering down with his former rapist and voluntarily "forgetting" everything that transpired between himself and Adalind up to that point. The show's writers were OOC with Nick for years. Greenwalt & Kouf seem very flippant when it comes to the subject of love, and they gleefully wrecked Nick and Juliette's relationship when the fancy struck them, regardless of everything the pair had gone through prior. They could have just as easily done the same with Nick and Adalind had the show continued past S6.
Besides, you just said yourself that he voluntarily slept with Adalind even while she was "a freak in bed." How is that different from the scenario I described between Nick and Juliette? At least their relationship, as disturbing as it might be, would have been far more honest and upfront compared to "Nadalind," which covertly says rape can be a perfectly acceptable building block in a long-term romance. It's morally irresponsible and disgusting. Please stop defending it.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - thecdn - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 06:38 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: I give you that but Nick being into a bit of a sadomasochist relationship is baseless and extremely OOC based on what we have seen of the character in six years
Apparently you haven't read hexenadlers fanfic.....
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - bart - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 06:58 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:no.(09-19-2017, 06:38 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: But Nick doesn't treat his personal relationships like he treats criminal wesen. That's two very distinct and very different things. The fact that he longed for family at the beginning of the show and worked to hold on to it at the end of the show shows that in this area he's very rigid and reserved but he's no longer the straight laced cop wanting to do things by the book at the end of the show like we saw him at the very beginning. He "Grimms" out more times now than he acts as a cop and the difference is glaring. Human nature is unpredictable I give you that but Nick being into a bit of a sadomasochist relationship is baseless and extremely OOC based on what we have seen of the character in six years, even when he was with Adalind who was a freak in bed (see her Renard couplings), Nick never acted outside this predetermined aspect of his personality.
It's no more baseless than Nick hunkering down with his former rapist and voluntarily "forgetting" everything that transpired between himself and Adalind up to that point. The show's writers were OOC with Nick for years. Greenwalt & Kouf seem very flippant when it comes to the subject of love, and they gleefully wrecked Nick and Juliette's relationship when the fancy struck them, regardless of everything the pair had gone through prior. They could have just as easily done the same with Nick and Adalind had the show continued past S6.
Besides, you just said yourself that he voluntarily slept with Adalind even while she was "a freak in bed." How is that different from the scenario I described between Nick and Juliette? At least their relationship, as disturbing as it might be, would have been far more honest and upfront compared to "Nadalind," which covertly says rape can be a perfectly acceptable building block in a long-term romance. It's morally irresponsible and disgusting. Please stop defending it.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - brandon - 09-19-2017
I do not consider Nick to be of "guy masochistic sex". If " wild sex" and the woman was the " dominator".
Without mixing " violent sex"
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - rpmaluki - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 06:58 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:Adalind may have been a freak in bed but that persona, we've seen that it was missing from the moment they hooked up. You are making the assumption that because she was one before that somehow meant Nick behaved like one in bed when he was with her. We know that he didn't because she didn't. Nick is a almost strictly conservative character sexually. He is capable of being very passionate but within certain established boundaries of his personality. He's not a monk but he's not a freak willing to do all kinds of weird sexual kink out of nowhere.(09-19-2017, 06:38 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: But Nick doesn't treat his personal relationships like he treats criminal wesen. That's two very distinct and very different things. The fact that he longed for family at the beginning of the show and worked to hold on to it at the end of the show shows that in this area he's very rigid and reserved but he's no longer the straight laced cop wanting to do things by the book at the end of the show like we saw him at the very beginning. He "Grimms" out more times now than he acts as a cop and the difference is glaring. Human nature is unpredictable I give you that but Nick being into a bit of a sadomasochist relationship is baseless and extremely OOC based on what we have seen of the character in six years, even when he was with Adalind who was a freak in bed (see her Renard couplings), Nick never acted outside this predetermined aspect of his personality.
It's no more baseless than Nick hunkering down with his former rapist and voluntarily "forgetting" everything that transpired between himself and Adalind up to that point. The show's writers were OOC with Nick for years. Greenwalt & Kouf seem very flippant when it comes to the subject of love, and they gleefully wrecked Nick and Juliette's relationship when the fancy struck them, regardless of everything the pair had gone through prior. They could have just as easily done the same with Nick and Adalind had the show continued past S6.
Besides, you just said yourself that he voluntarily slept with Adalind even while she was "a freak in bed." How is that different from the scenario I described between Nick and Juliette? At least their relationship, as disturbing as it might be, would have been far more honest and upfront compared to "Nadalind," which covertly says rape can be a perfectly acceptable building block in a long-term romance. It's morally irresponsible and disgusting. Please stop defending it.
The writers may have gone in directions that some fans feel contradicts the characters, like swapping Juliette for Adalind etc but it was their prerogative as the creators. It's their pen that determines whether or not Nick is a freak in bed or has conservative values around love, family etc. Human nature is unpredictable but Nick sure wasn't. The most outrageous thing he did was fall in love with the mother of his son despite a volatile past.
I can't argue with you about what you wanted to happen as long as it is without relevant evidence spanning 123 worth of episodes on character behavior. I am willing to argue what should have happened based on actual dialogue, actions and scenes from the show to back up a different scenario than what we got in the end.
Nick and Adalind may be jarring to viewers such as yourself I understand that but them getting together wasn't outside of the realm of possibility when you go back to their first and second season interactions, including the very scene that clearly rubs people raw, Adalind's assault on Nick (I'm not even trying to change your view on this btw) but then don't forget the subsequent scene that transformed Juliette into a Hexenbiest, how Nick behaved. Nick has always shown hints of being physically attracted to Adalind whether it's acceptable to you on not. It is what it is.
I'm not defending Adalind's actions on the day Kelly was conceived but I can't ignore what the writers put on the screen either. Adalind is remorseful of her actions towards Nick (and Juliette) I am able to look at the full picture of what happened that day before Monroe and Rosalee's wedding, there were extenuating circumstances that go beyond simply Adalind preying on Nick. It's despicable when looked at out of context but then so is what Nick has done to Adalind over the course of the show. They have done horrible things to each but the attraction was always there regardless. They finally acted on it. Both recognised they crappy past and still pursued a loving relationship with one another.
Presenting the show as it aired is not the same as endorsing everything that went on between the first episode and the last.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - Hexenadler - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 07:32 AM)bart Wrote: no.
"No," you won't stop defending a morally irresponsible and disgusting fictional relationship? Okay then. Good to know.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - rpmaluki - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 08:49 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:It's a fictional relationship, why get bent over what others think?(09-19-2017, 07:32 AM)bart Wrote: no.
"No," you won't stop defending a morally irresponsible and disgusting fictional relationship? Okay then. Good to know.
Forget I asked.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - dicappatore - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 06:58 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:(09-19-2017, 06:38 AM)rpmaluki Wrote: But Nick doesn't treat his personal relationships like he treats criminal wesen. That's two very distinct and very different things. The fact that he longed for family at the beginning of the show and worked to hold on to it at the end of the show shows that in this area he's very rigid and reserved but he's no longer the straight laced cop wanting to do things by the book at the end of the show like we saw him at the very beginning. He "Grimms" out more times now than he acts as a cop and the difference is glaring. Human nature is unpredictable I give you that but Nick being into a bit of a sadomasochist relationship is baseless and extremely OOC based on what we have seen of the character in six years, even when he was with Adalind who was a freak in bed (see her Renard couplings), Nick never acted outside this predetermined aspect of his personality.
It's no more baseless than Nick hunkering down with his former rapist and voluntarily "forgetting" everything that transpired between himself and Adalind up to that point. The show's writers were OOC with Nick for years. Greenwalt & Kouf seem very flippant when it comes to the subject of love, and they gleefully wrecked Nick and Juliette's relationship when the fancy struck them, regardless of everything the pair had gone through prior. They could have just as easily done the same with Nick and Adalind had the show continued past S6.
Besides, you just said yourself that he voluntarily slept with Adalind even while she was "a freak in bed." How is that different from the scenario I described between Nick and Juliette? At least their relationship, as disturbing as it might be, would have been far more honest and upfront compared to "Nadalind," which covertly says rape can be a perfectly acceptable building block in a long-term romance. It's morally irresponsible and disgusting. Please stop defending it.
its amazing how some can claim a different outcome on a character that did just what the outcome was, instead of what they claim. I guess an opinion is what we saw, not what actually happened.
Somehow Nick's reaction living with Juliette as a Hexenbiest would be different for Nick living with Adalind as a Hexenbiest. Nick would have reacted different living with Juliette not because she was a Hex. They were both Hex. His reaction would have differ not based on what they were but Who they were.
Somehow we are to believe someone's prediction on Nicks behavior with a Hex, instead of how he WAS behaving with a Hex??
(09-19-2017, 04:32 AM)dicappatore Wrote:(09-19-2017, 02:20 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote: I will give her some credit for burning down the trailer to keep the gang busy, so she could sneak back to the house to send that fatal emailThe two events had nothing to do with each other. She burnt the trailer. Then she went to Kenneth who told her we are going to burn a lot of bridges. When buring the trailer she had no idea Kenneth was going to ask her to contact Kelly. That conversation did not happen till after the trailer when Kenneth said Nick must have a way to contact his mother.
Those two events are verry related. You are intermixing episodes 19 and 20. Here we go again. Assumptions being posted as facts. You are so wrong on your assumptions just like when you claimed that Juliette said to Kenneth, she was burning bridges instead of Kenneth asking her, “Been Burning some bridges”.
As we all can see, Kenneth suggests to her to contact Kelly. She then burns the trailer at the last scene is E19.
The gang arrives at the trailer at the beginning of E20 while she sends the email at the house. Then she goes back to the hotel where she is asked if she was burning bridges.
Those are the facts, not my opinions or assumptions
S4, E19, Iron Hands. Time Stamp into the episode is 31:56
Scene: Juliette meets with Kenneth in his hotel room.
________________________________________
[Kenneth offers Juliette a glass of wine]
Juliette: He actually told me to leave her alone. After what she's done to us...
Kenneth: Well, now that he's going to be a father, his protective urges have shifted.
Juliette: What's in it for me?
Kenneth: A whole new life with a family that values what you are and what you can do. This isn't about one city or one country. This is about everything. And not to mention, the family's very generous. You can have anything you want. So will you be a pawn, or will you be a queen? It's up to you.
Juliette: What do you want me to do?
Kenneth: Nick must have some way of communicating with his mother, yes?
Juliette: Yeah.
Kenneth: Wouldn't it be wonderful if Nick was in mortal danger and needed Mummy's help? I do hope she's the heroic type.
Same episode. Time stamp is 40:13. It’s the last scene for the episode.
Scene: Juliette lights a candle in the trailer.
________________________________________
[Flashback of Juliette turning into a Hexenbiest for the first time in "Chupacabra" and flashback of Juliette telling Nick he can't even look at her anymore in "Bad Luck." Juliette sets the candle down and grabs one of the diaries about Hexenbiests. She starts ripping the pages out, before throwing whatever she can onto the ground. She then throws the candle on the ground, starting a fire. She grabs the bottle of Spirit Oleander and throws it on the fire, causing it to grow. She angrily woges as she watches the fire spread. She retracts, leaves the trailer, and calls Nick]
Nick: [His phone rings and he answers] Juliette, where are you?
Juliette: You might want to stop by Aunt Marie's trailer.
Nick: What have you done?
Juliette: Just trying to stay warm, Nick. I don't have anybody to hold me anymore.
Nick: Juliette—
Juliette: Bye, Nick. [She hangs up]
Nick: Juliette!
S4, E20, You Don’t Know Jack Opening scene
Scene: Nick, Hank, Monroe, and Wu arrive at the trailer, and find that it has been torched by Juliette.
________________________________________
Monroe: Oh, my God.
Hank: Unbelievable.
[They all go inside the trailer and look around. Flashback of Nick exploring the trailer for the first time in "Pilot"]
Monroe: This is not Juliette. This is—
Hank: This is vengeance.
Wu: I just can't believe it. Even if she is a Hexenbiest.
[Flashback of Hank's first time in the trailer in "The Bottle Imp"]
Monroe: [To Wu] You got an extra flashlight?
Wu: Yeah.
Monroe: Thank you.
[Flashback of Wu's first time in the trailer in "Wesenrein". Nick then looks in the weapons cabinet. Flashback of Nick looking in the cabinet in "Pilot"]
Hank: Some of these don't look too bad.
Monroe: Oh, no, no, no. Not the Ogre gun. Please, not the Ogre gun. [He grabs the Siegbarste Gewehr case and opens it. Flashback of Monroe putting the gun together in "Game Ogre"]
Hank: The one you used to save my life.
Monroe: It looks okay.
Hank: Some of these weapons were built to survive a lot more than this.
Wu: Hey. [Looking on the ground] This book's okay.
[Flashback of Nick talking with his mom about Juliette in "The Kiss"]
Monroe: Look, why don't we take what's left to the spice shop?
________________________________________
Scene: Juliette arrives home. Time stamp 3:50
[Juliette sends an email to Kelly saying that Nick is in danger, and that he may be killed if she doesn't come]
________________________________________
________________________________________
Scene: Juliette informs Kenneth that she contacted Kelly. 11:05
Kenneth: How'd it go?
Juliette: Kelly Burkhardt believes her son's in danger.
Kenneth: She's feeling heroic?
Juliette: She's on her way.
Kenneth: Did you ask about the child?
Juliette: No, if I had, she would have gotten suspicious. Don't underestimate her.
Kenneth: I don't. I don't underestimate you, either.
Juliette: It's better that way. [She turns around to leave]
Kenneth: I'd prefer you not go.
Juliette: It's been a long day.
Kenneth: Then you should get some rest. Things are happening very quickly now. We can't afford to be out of touch.
Juliette: You expect me to stay here?
Kenneth: I do. Your room's right there.
Juliette: So you don't think Adalind is coming back.
Kenneth: I don't see why she would. Now that Nick knows he's going to be a Grimm daddy, I'm sure he's taking very good care of her.
[He notices an ash mark on Juliette's hand] Been burning some bridges?
Juliette: A little payback.
Kenneth: Oh. We're going to have a lot of that.
________________________________________
(09-19-2017, 02:46 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:In the end, Monroe and Rosalee don’t end up as their Wesen counterparts did. They actually married out of species.They are not unique. Did you forget about the circus. That couple was a blutbod and a faucbau.
They may have changed their habits so to be able to coexist with humans. But they did not abandon who and what they are. In every fight even they last one they all went to their native selves to fight. They woged out bared then fangs and went in for the kill. Reformed would be act like a human and pick up a weapon. What Monroe did was not as much reform but became domesticated.
Before you make an argument about your assumptions or opinions, please get your facts straight. I am no longer going to do the research to prove your facts are convoluted unless I get billing information for doing the research for you. /Bow! <---(SARCASM)
Sorry had to reply to my own post because I thought of this afterwards. This post ended with dialogue from S4, E20, You Don’t Know Jack. Is this poetic justice? Is the episode title a reflection on some posters not knowing the facts?