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+--- Thread: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience (/Thread-Why-Juliette-as-a-character-didn-t-click-with-the-audience)
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - wesen - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 01:56 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:I don't think Adalind would have wanted her daughter to wreak havoc on BC even if she may have the power to do so. I think Adalind didn't want her daughter to become even more corrupted than she already was, she wanted to keep her daughter from going over to the dark side.That comment would hold true if they where not hexenbiest. It has been shown over and over wesen live by the rule survival of the fittest. Trying to view their actions based on how people should act ignores they are wesen. Even monroe who has chosen to live his life as a pacifist. when cornered the animal comes out and he goes for the throat. Had that been Sean just like with Grossante he would have let her do her thing. As for Adalind not being violent. what about in season one when she was talking to Sean under the bridge. The homeless guy comes over and interrupts them. Adalind says just a minute turns and kills the guy. Turns back around and continues the conversation she was having with Sean as if nothing had happened.
You see it as Diana being corrupted, the fact is as a wesen life is one life or death situation after another. If Adalind tries to surpress Diana's abilities some wesen will take her out. Name one wesen fight that did not end in one of the people dead. When wesen woge out it is a fight with fangs and claws. How else could that kind of confrontation end in anything other then death. We have seen being around Nick by definition means being able and willing to protect your self. That is why ADalind suppressing her abilities and wanting to be with Nick made no since. She knows what Juliette went through not being able to protect herself. If she thought being at the fome that no body knew about would protect her. Trubel and Meisner proved that was a misguided assumption.
That was season one Adalind though, so of course she had no qualms killing others. I think Adalind saw for herself what happened when she allowed her hexenbiest to take control of her, and also saw what it did to Juliette. Adalind was scared of her daughter's powers, because she knew how unstoppable Diana was. She probably thought that if she encouraged Diana to unleash her full powers against BC, Diana might end up liking that kind of power over others and her hexenbiest side would take over. Diana already had no problem killing people she disliked/hated, so encouraging her to use her powers to do harm at such a young age would have just been a repeat of what Adalind went through with her own mother. Also, Adalind took the suppressant because she had no choice, it was the only way to prove to Nick and the others that she wasn't going to harm them. Her powers weren't enough to defeat Juliette on her own, and with nowhere else to turn, her last hope was Nick.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - syscrash - 09-19-2017
Quote: I will give her some credit for burning down the trailer to keep the gang busy, so she could sneak back to the house to send that fatal emailThe two events had nothing to do with each other. She burnt the trailer. Then she went to Kenneth who told her we are going to burn a lot of bridges. When buring the trailer she had no idea Kenneth was going to ask her to contact Kelly. That conversation did not happen till after the trailer when Kenneth said Nick must have a way to contact his mother.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - dicappatore - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 01:56 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:I don't think Adalind would have wanted her daughter to wreak havoc on BC even if she may have the power to do so. I think Adalind didn't want her daughter to become even more corrupted than she already was, she wanted to keep her daughter from going over to the dark side.That comment would hold true if they where not hexenbiest. It has been shown over and over wesen live by the rule survival of the fittest. Trying to view their actions based on how people should act ignores they are wesen. Even monroe who has chosen to live his life as a pacifist. when cornered the animal comes out and he goes for the throat. Had that been Sean just like with Grossante he would have let her do her thing. As for Adalind not being violent. what about in season one when she was talking to Sean under the bridge. The homeless guy comes over and interrupts them. Adalind says just a minute turns and kills the guy. Turns back around and continues the conversation she was having with Sean as if nothing had happened.
You see it as Diana being corrupted, the fact is as a wesen life is one life or death situation after another. If Adalind tries to surpress Diana's abilities some wesen will take her out. Name one wesen fight that did not end in one of the people dead. When wesen woge out it is a fight with fangs and claws. How else could that kind of confrontation end in anything other then death. We have seen being around Nick by definition means being able and willing to protect your self. That is why ADalind suppressing her abilities and wanting to be with Nick made no since. She knows what Juliette went through not being able to protect herself. If she thought being at the fome that no body knew about would protect her. Trubel and Meisner proved that was a misguided assumption.
Quote:Kenneth played Adalind by, as you stated, throwing her under the bus, knowing she would have no place to run but Nick. The father of her upcoming new born. Then, he set up Juliette to confront them by bailing her out and hinting her to go find Nick and Adalind. She did. Found both of them at the Police Station.You are right Kenneth did play Adalind. He never said she had to leave. The king had already promised Adalind protection. As far as the king was concerned he needed Adalind to raise Diana.
As for Juliette he only told her that her boyfriend was a father. That is no difference then telling someone they are being cheated on. Kenneth had no idea how Nick was going to react. Had Nick handled the situation better Juliette would have never went off on Nick like she did.
In the end, Monroe and Rosalee don’t end up as their Wesen counterparts did. They actually married out of species. Adalind became a reformed Hex and at the end so did Juliette. Nick, The Grimm started a new trend dealing with Wesen and taught Trubel to act very similar. Even Sean became a reformed Zauberbiest.
All these characters and a bunch more throughout the series broke all the assumptions on Wesen behavior. I am not claiming all the Wesen world reformed itself. But the ones around Diana did.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - syscrash - 09-19-2017
Quote:I don’t know if you have kids, but when it happens your world of priorities are turned upside down. I won’t just mention what Marie told Nick. Paraphrasing; "If you love Juliette, break it off, now that you are a Grimm". Why did she tell him that? Because loved ones become a liability.You ignore the fact she is a hexenbiest with magical powers. Also wesen have kids all of the time are they liabilities. Wesen having kids do not give up who or what they are. You keep trying to relate what Adalind does as if she was a human. She is a hexenbiest with magical powers. That puts her at the top of the wesen food chain. If you noticed the only thing that strikes fear in Adalind was another hexenbiest.
Quote:That was season one Adalind though, so of course she had no qualms killing others. I think Adalind saw for herself what happened when she allowed her hexenbiest to take control of her, and also saw what it did to Juliette. Adalind was scared of her daughter's powers, because she knew how unstoppable Diana was. She probably thought that if she encouraged Diana to unleash her full powers against BC, Diana might end up liking that kind of power over others and her hexenbiest side would take over. Diana already had no problem killing people she disliked/hated, so encouraging her to use her powers to do harm at such a young age would have just been a repeat of what Adalind went through with her own mother. Also, Adalind took the suppressant because she had no choice, it was the only way to prove to Nick and the others that she wasn't going to harm them. Her powers weren't enough to defeat Juliette on her own, and with nowhere else to turn, her last hope was Nick.You just can't help but trying to see Adalind as a human with human sensibilities. The only problem Adalind had with her mother is that she could never live up to what her mother expected. Was she scared of Diana yes because Diana had much more power then she had. Adalind never said one negative thing about what Diana did. Even when she told Nick about what Diana did. She never said it was wrong she explained why she did it. The show makes a point that wesen see death as a part of life. They do not have that same aversion to killing someone like humans do. They accept it is just something they do to survive. Name one wesen that showed a traumatic reaction to killing someone. Even the frog girl it was not the killing that bothered her. It was the repercussions of what happens when their kind kill. Remember you are talking about folks that will ripe their prays throat out with their fangs. The show from the beginning has portrayed wesen as animals who live by the law of the jungle like any other animal. How many comments have been made about wesen hunting.
Even the wesen at the wesen camp where taught to hunt like animals.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - rpmaluki - 09-19-2017
Adalind and Diana have not given up their hexen/wesen status. Adalind is reformed in terms of her behaviour and how she treats people. She is still a hexenbiest and when the occasion calls, she uses her hexenbiest powers and abilities, instead of to harm selfishily, it's to help/assist or whatever but it's generally for good. She's no doubt raised Diana to rein in her excess selfish behaviour. Even Sean didn't want Diana to always be killing people because she wanted (Rachel and Bonaparte). Diana has to be guided away from the negative tendencies of her abilities in order for her to be able to relate with those around her but she wasn't all "bad". She also had a hint of wanting to please as seen with her little floating/disappearing trick at the spice shop, reading the cloth, getting Nick and Eve back from the other world. If a blutbad can reform (curb violent destructive behaviours) and still be a blutbad, the same can happen with a hexenbiest.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - syscrash - 09-19-2017
Quote:In the end, Monroe and Rosalee don’t end up as their Wesen counterparts did. They actually married out of species.They are not unique. Did you forget about the circus. That couple was a blutbod and a faucbau.
They may have changed their habits so to be able to coexist with humans. But they did not abandon who and what they are. In every fight even they last one they all went to their native selves to fight. They woged out bared then fangs and went in for the kill. Reformed would be act like a human and pick up a weapon. What Monroe did was not as much reform but became domesticated.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - wesen - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 02:27 AM)syscrash Wrote:The wesen in El Cuegle was shown to struggle/hate whenever he had to do a killing so no I don't think that all wesen were okay with harming others. The show also makes a commentary about how if the wesen allowed their inner beasts to take control of them, it would cause harm to innocent people. The writers make a distinction between 'bad' wesen who are unrestrained, and the 'good' ones who choose to live in peace with humans. In Season 1 in the Big Feet episode, it was shown that there were wesen who wanted to be completely human, and tried to find a way to completely suppress/kill off their wesen side. So wesen are not just animals, they are also partly human. Adalind even said that she didn't want to be a hexenbiest anymore to Rosalee, because she didn't like what it did to her, what it made her do. I'm sure those feelings extended to her daughter, because she didn't want her daughter to end up in the same boat as she did, trying to embody what a hexenbiest was supposed to be. Adalind never tried to encourage Diana to use her powers even against Zoestorer, when Diana had more chance of killing him than Nick did. I think Adalind would have wanted to make sure that her daughter could use the destructive side of her powers only when she was mature enough to be able to control it.Quote:I don’t know if you have kids, but when it happens your world of priorities are turned upside down. I won’t just mention what Marie told Nick. Paraphrasing; "If you love Juliette, break it off, now that you are a Grimm". Why did she tell him that? Because loved ones become a liability.You ignore the fact she is a hexenbiest with magical powers. Also wesen have kids all of the time are they liabilities. Wesen having kids do not give up who or what they are. You keep trying to relate what Adalind does as if she was a human. She is a hexenbiest with magical powers. That puts her at the top of the wesen food chain. If you noticed the only thing that strikes fear in Adalind was another hexenbiest.
Quote:That was season one Adalind though, so of course she had no qualms killing others. I think Adalind saw for herself what happened when she allowed her hexenbiest to take control of her, and also saw what it did to Juliette. Adalind was scared of her daughter's powers, because she knew how unstoppable Diana was. She probably thought that if she encouraged Diana to unleash her full powers against BC, Diana might end up liking that kind of power over others and her hexenbiest side would take over. Diana already had no problem killing people she disliked/hated, so encouraging her to use her powers to do harm at such a young age would have just been a repeat of what Adalind went through with her own mother. Also, Adalind took the suppressant because she had no choice, it was the only way to prove to Nick and the others that she wasn't going to harm them. Her powers weren't enough to defeat Juliette on her own, and with nowhere else to turn, her last hope was Nick.You just can't help but trying to see Adalind as a human with human sensibilities. The only problem Adalind had with her mother is that she could never live up to what her mother expected. Was she scared of Diana yes because Diana had much more power then she had. Adalind never said one negative thing about what Diana did. Even when she told Nick about what Diana did. She never said it was wrong she explained why she did it. The show makes a point that wesen see death as a part of life. They do not have that same aversion to killing someone like humans do. They accept it is just something they do to survive. Name one wesen that showed a traumatic reaction to killing someone. Even the frog girl it was not the killing that bothered her. It was the repercussions of what happens when their kind kill. Remember you are talking about folks that will ripe their prays throat out with their fangs. The show from the beginning has portrayed wesen as animals who live by the law of the jungle like any other animal. How many comments have been made about wesen hunting.
Even the wesen at the wesen camp where taught to hunt like animals.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - dicappatore - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 02:20 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote: I will give her some credit for burning down the trailer to keep the gang busy, so she could sneak back to the house to send that fatal emailThe two events had nothing to do with each other. She burnt the trailer. Then she went to Kenneth who told her we are going to burn a lot of bridges. When buring the trailer she had no idea Kenneth was going to ask her to contact Kelly. That conversation did not happen till after the trailer when Kenneth said Nick must have a way to contact his mother.
Those two events are verry related. You are intermixing episodes 19 and 20. Here we go again. Assumptions being posted as facts. You are so wrong on your assumptions just like when you claimed that Juliette said to Kenneth, she was burning bridges instead of Kenneth asking her, “Been Burning some bridges”.
As we all can see, Kenneth suggests to her to contact Kelly. She then burns the trailer at the last scene is E19.
The gang arrives at the trailer at the beginning of E20 while she sends the email at the house. Then she goes back to the hotel where she is asked if she was burning bridges.
Those are the facts, not my opinions or assumptions
S4, E19, Iron Hands. Time Stamp into the episode is 31:56
Scene: Juliette meets with Kenneth in his hotel room.
________________________________________
[Kenneth offers Juliette a glass of wine]
Juliette: He actually told me to leave her alone. After what she's done to us...
Kenneth: Well, now that he's going to be a father, his protective urges have shifted.
Juliette: What's in it for me?
Kenneth: A whole new life with a family that values what you are and what you can do. This isn't about one city or one country. This is about everything. And not to mention, the family's very generous. You can have anything you want. So will you be a pawn, or will you be a queen? It's up to you.
Juliette: What do you want me to do?
Kenneth: Nick must have some way of communicating with his mother, yes?
Juliette: Yeah.
Kenneth: Wouldn't it be wonderful if Nick was in mortal danger and needed Mummy's help? I do hope she's the heroic type.
Same episode. Time stamp is 40:13. It’s the last scene for the episode.
Scene: Juliette lights a candle in the trailer.
________________________________________
[Flashback of Juliette turning into a Hexenbiest for the first time in "Chupacabra" and flashback of Juliette telling Nick he can't even look at her anymore in "Bad Luck." Juliette sets the candle down and grabs one of the diaries about Hexenbiests. She starts ripping the pages out, before throwing whatever she can onto the ground. She then throws the candle on the ground, starting a fire. She grabs the bottle of Spirit Oleander and throws it on the fire, causing it to grow. She angrily woges as she watches the fire spread. She retracts, leaves the trailer, and calls Nick]
Nick: [His phone rings and he answers] Juliette, where are you?
Juliette: You might want to stop by Aunt Marie's trailer.
Nick: What have you done?
Juliette: Just trying to stay warm, Nick. I don't have anybody to hold me anymore.
Nick: Juliette—
Juliette: Bye, Nick. [She hangs up]
Nick: Juliette!
S4, E20, You Don’t Know Jack Opening scene
Scene: Nick, Hank, Monroe, and Wu arrive at the trailer, and find that it has been torched by Juliette.
________________________________________
Monroe: Oh, my God.
Hank: Unbelievable.
[They all go inside the trailer and look around. Flashback of Nick exploring the trailer for the first time in "Pilot"]
Monroe: This is not Juliette. This is—
Hank: This is vengeance.
Wu: I just can't believe it. Even if she is a Hexenbiest.
[Flashback of Hank's first time in the trailer in "The Bottle Imp"]
Monroe: [To Wu] You got an extra flashlight?
Wu: Yeah.
Monroe: Thank you.
[Flashback of Wu's first time in the trailer in "Wesenrein". Nick then looks in the weapons cabinet. Flashback of Nick looking in the cabinet in "Pilot"]
Hank: Some of these don't look too bad.
Monroe: Oh, no, no, no. Not the Ogre gun. Please, not the Ogre gun. [He grabs the Siegbarste Gewehr case and opens it. Flashback of Monroe putting the gun together in "Game Ogre"]
Hank: The one you used to save my life.
Monroe: It looks okay.
Hank: Some of these weapons were built to survive a lot more than this.
Wu: Hey. [Looking on the ground] This book's okay.
[Flashback of Nick talking with his mom about Juliette in "The Kiss"]
Monroe: Look, why don't we take what's left to the spice shop?
________________________________________
Scene: Juliette arrives home. Time stamp 3:50
[Juliette sends an email to Kelly saying that Nick is in danger, and that he may be killed if she doesn't come]
________________________________________
________________________________________
Scene: Juliette informs Kenneth that she contacted Kelly. 11:05
Kenneth: How'd it go?
Juliette: Kelly Burkhardt believes her son's in danger.
Kenneth: She's feeling heroic?
Juliette: She's on her way.
Kenneth: Did you ask about the child?
Juliette: No, if I had, she would have gotten suspicious. Don't underestimate her.
Kenneth: I don't. I don't underestimate you, either.
Juliette: It's better that way. [She turns around to leave]
Kenneth: I'd prefer you not go.
Juliette: It's been a long day.
Kenneth: Then you should get some rest. Things are happening very quickly now. We can't afford to be out of touch.
Juliette: You expect me to stay here?
Kenneth: I do. Your room's right there.
Juliette: So you don't think Adalind is coming back.
Kenneth: I don't see why she would. Now that Nick knows he's going to be a Grimm daddy, I'm sure he's taking very good care of her.
[He notices an ash mark on Juliette's hand] Been burning some bridges?
Juliette: A little payback.
Kenneth: Oh. We're going to have a lot of that.
________________________________________
(09-19-2017, 02:46 AM)syscrash Wrote:Quote:In the end, Monroe and Rosalee don’t end up as their Wesen counterparts did. They actually married out of species.They are not unique. Did you forget about the circus. That couple was a blutbod and a faucbau.
They may have changed their habits so to be able to coexist with humans. But they did not abandon who and what they are. In every fight even they last one they all went to their native selves to fight. They woged out bared then fangs and went in for the kill. Reformed would be act like a human and pick up a weapon. What Monroe did was not as much reform but became domesticated.
Before you make an argument about your assumptions or opinions, please get your facts straight. I am no longer going to do the research to prove your facts are convoluted unless I get billing information for doing the research for you. /Bow! <---(SARCASM)
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - brandon - 09-19-2017
The only thing I see is that Juliette let himself be dominated by hatred.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - rpmaluki - 09-19-2017
(09-19-2017, 04:32 AM)dicappatore Wrote: [Kenneth offers Juliette a glass of wine]Here's the show telling us about the "nature" of Grimms, being inherently protective even against their better judgement.
Juliette: He actually told me to leave her alone. After what she's done to us...
Kenneth: Well, now that he's going to be a father, his protective urges have shifted.
Juliette: What's in it for me?
Kenneth: A whole new life with a family that values what you are and what you can do. This isn't about one city or one country. This is about everything. And not to mention, the family's very generous. You can have anything you want. So will you be a pawn, or will you be a queen? It's up to you.
Juliette: What do you want me to do?
Kenneth: Nick must have some way of communicating with his mother, yes?
Juliette: Yeah.
Kenneth: Wouldn't it be wonderful if Nick was in mortal danger and needed Mummy's help? I do hope she's the heroic type....
Scene: Juliette informs Kenneth that she contacted Kelly. 11:05
Kenneth: How'd it go?
Juliette: Kelly Burkhardt believes her son's in danger.
Kenneth: She's feeling heroic?
Juliette: She's on her way.
Quote:Same episode. Time stamp is 40:13. It’s the last scene for the episode.I brought this up in a different thread. Is this a continuity error that the same book is in the trailer at the end of the show or did the page with Marie's "Adalind/hexenbiest" entry survive the trailer fire?
Scene: Juliette lights a candle in the trailer.
________________________________________
[Flashback of Juliette turning into a Hexenbiest for the first time in "Chupacabra" and flashback of Juliette telling Nick he can't even look at her anymore in "Bad Luck." Juliette sets the candle down and grabs one of the diaries about Hexenbiests. She starts ripping the pages out, before throwing whatever she can onto the ground. She then throws the candle on the ground, starting a fire. She grabs the bottle of Spirit Oleander and throws it on the fire, causing it to grow. She angrily woges as she watches the fire spread. She retracts, leaves the trailer, and calls Nick]
Nick: [His phone rings and he answers] Juliette, where are you?
Juliette: You might want to stop by Aunt Marie's trailer.
Nick: What have you done?
Juliette: Just trying to stay warm, Nick. I don't have anybody to hold me anymore.
Nick: Juliette—
Juliette: Bye, Nick. [She hangs up]
Nick: Juliette!