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+--- Thread: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience (/Thread-Why-Juliette-as-a-character-didn-t-click-with-the-audience)
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 06:25 PM)wesen Wrote: I think Adalind was proactive when she decided to leave Nick and take Kelly with her to live with Renard.
That was totally reactive behavior. Adalind didn't just decide out of the blue to leave because she figured everyone would be safer. She did it because Conrad threatened to kill Nick and Kelly. And everything she did while she was trapped in that house was in response to something someone else did. She sent a warning to Nick because other people were on the way to kill him. She did the trust me knot because Nick asked her to. She stayed in that house until Nick decided she should leave.
Adalind thought she had to go through the mirror because Eve had decided to go there rather than wait for skull guy to come after them. And when she fought with Zerstorer, it was because he was attacking. None of those situations were of her making either.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - wesen - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 06:43 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(09-18-2017, 06:25 PM)wesen Wrote: I think Adalind was proactive when she decided to leave Nick and take Kelly with her to live with Renard.
That was totally reactive behavior. Adalind didn't just decide out of the blue to leave because she figured everyone would be safer. She did it because Conrad threatened to kill Nick and Kelly. And everything she did while she was trapped in that house was in response to something someone else did. She sent a warning to Nick because other people were on the way to kill him. She did the trust me knot because Nick asked her to. She stayed in that house until Nick decided she should leave.
Adalind thought she had to go through the mirror because Eve had decided to go there rather than wait for skull guy to come after them. And when she fought with Zerstorer, it was because he was attacking. None of those situations were of her making either.
In that case, I could then argue that Adalind from the earlier seasons was also reactive since, after taking orders from Renard, she went against Juliette only because of what Nick did to her. She allied with the Royals because of what Renard did to her. I never saw her take control of anything, other than deciding to sell her baby in order to get her powers back. Sleeping with Nick was also in reaction to Diana being taken away from her and was not her own initiative, instead she was forced to do so because Victor ordered her to do so. She believed it was the only way to get her baby back. I think that's the main difference between Adalind and JuliEve, even when Juliette was her old self, it was her own initiative to help out Nick and his crew. Adalind was a survivor but she was also far more reliant on others to help her out. That's why I said before that Adalind, despite being a hexenbiest, represented the traditional feminine role in the show.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-18-2017
Adalind's behavior was proactive because she initiated the actions. In order for her actions to be considered reactive, she would have to be responding to the actions of others.
For example, soldiers. A soldier attacking is proactive, while a soldier defending is reactive. The fact that both soldiers have been ordered to be where they are and to do what they do is not relevant.
Your interpretation of events is essentially, "he made me do it," or "I was just following orders."
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - wesen - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 07:40 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote: Adalind's behavior was proactive because she initiated the actions. In order for her actions to be considered reactive, she would have to be responding to the actions of others.
For example, soldiers. A soldier attacking is proactive, while a soldier defending is reactive. The fact that both soldiers have been ordered to be where they are and to do what they do is not relevant.
Your interpretation of events is essentially, "he made me do it," or "I was just following orders."
But Adalind casting a spell on Juliette was reactive though. She only did it (reacted) because Nick stole her powers. Yes, she initiated the whole amnesia thing, but like I said, it was only in response to what was done to her. I would imagine that if Adalind had been proactive, she would have acted on her own initiative to go after Juliette before Nick had stolen her powers. After her baby was taken from her, Adalind felt pressured by Viktor to steal Nick's powers from him, because she felt that was the only way she could be reunited with Diana. I think it's almost like if someone held your child hostage and you were under pressure to follow their instructions, you are reacting to that threat. Similar circumstances in season 5 when Adalind left Nick. It because she was pressured/threatened and it was the only way she felt she could protect Nick and Kelly. It was her own initiative to do so. She felt she was taking things into her own hands by 'following' Bonaparte's orders, just like she followed Renard's and the Royals orders.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - dicappatore - 09-18-2017
(09-17-2017, 05:30 PM)wesen Wrote:(09-17-2017, 05:20 PM)irukandji Wrote:(09-17-2017, 05:01 PM)wesen Wrote:(09-17-2017, 04:51 PM)irukandji Wrote:Not all of it of course, but I think the actor/actress does contribute to the likeability of the character. Take for example Adalind, she was a cartoony villain at the beginning but I still found her interesting, even though I disliked her character. Then when she was toned down in season 5-6, I still liked her far more than I did Juliette. Despite her toned down state, she still came across as warm and affectionate, and I could believe that she really did fall in love with Nick and would remain loyal to him, even after 20 years. Renard also had many faults, but I felt Sasha's innate charisma and acting skills made me like him despite his role as a villain. Also Monroe, who was supposed to be side kick to Nick, I actually liked more than Nick himself. Maybe it wasn't supposed to happen, but at one point I actually preferred seeing more of Monroe's scenes than even Nick's. Hank and Wu also weren't as fully fleshed as some of the other characters, but I still enjoyed watching them on screen. I think Eve was actually better to watch than Juliette. At least it was understandable why she was always so expressionless and unemotional.(09-17-2017, 04:47 PM)wesen Wrote: No offence to the actress Bitsie, I'm sure she's a lovely person, but I feel that besides the bad writing, it was also her portrayal that caused the audience to be 'meh' on her. I remember watching her from season 1, and thinking how bad her acting was, because she was so expressionless/emotionless. It was distracting and quite jarring to see her act so woodenly. Even when Adalind's character was toned down in season 5-6, I still found her more likeable than Juliette, maybe because her face and eyes still expressed so much more emotion.
Can we really blame the character's faults on the actress?
I would have to disagree. I see Nick's character as a corrupt cop who, deep down inside, has nothing but contempt for law enforcement. I get that from his character in Grimm. The fact that I see it on the screen is a testament to the man's acting ability, not that he's actually some kind of rebel in real life.
Contempt for law enforcement? Really? That's definitely different from the Nick I saw in the show. Nick went against the rules of being a cop because the rules/law didn't address magic or wesen. Nick tried to follow the rules as a cop at the beginning, but in the end he knew it wasn't enough to bring justice or protect the innocent from being attacked/killed by wesen.
Oh Oh wes, i am seeing that head bouncing off the wall again!
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - wesen - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 08:38 PM)dicappatore Wrote:(09-17-2017, 05:30 PM)wesen Wrote:(09-17-2017, 05:20 PM)irukandji Wrote:(09-17-2017, 05:01 PM)wesen Wrote:(09-17-2017, 04:51 PM)irukandji Wrote: Can we really blame the character's faults on the actress?Not all of it of course, but I think the actor/actress does contribute to the likeability of the character. Take for example Adalind, she was a cartoony villain at the beginning but I still found her interesting, even though I disliked her character. Then when she was toned down in season 5-6, I still liked her far more than I did Juliette. Despite her toned down state, she still came across as warm and affectionate, and I could believe that she really did fall in love with Nick and would remain loyal to him, even after 20 years. Renard also had many faults, but I felt Sasha's innate charisma and acting skills made me like him despite his role as a villain. Also Monroe, who was supposed to be side kick to Nick, I actually liked more than Nick himself. Maybe it wasn't supposed to happen, but at one point I actually preferred seeing more of Monroe's scenes than even Nick's. Hank and Wu also weren't as fully fleshed as some of the other characters, but I still enjoyed watching them on screen. I think Eve was actually better to watch than Juliette. At least it was understandable why she was always so expressionless and unemotional.
I would have to disagree. I see Nick's character as a corrupt cop who, deep down inside, has nothing but contempt for law enforcement. I get that from his character in Grimm. The fact that I see it on the screen is a testament to the man's acting ability, not that he's actually some kind of rebel in real life.
Contempt for law enforcement? Really? That's definitely different from the Nick I saw in the show. Nick went against the rules of being a cop because the rules/law didn't address magic or wesen. Nick tried to follow the rules as a cop at the beginning, but in the end he knew it wasn't enough to bring justice or protect the innocent from being attacked/killed by wesen.
Oh Oh wes, i am seeing that head bouncing off the wall again!
hhaha, i dont mind it so much. the show is gone, nothing much to do but argue over what was, what could have been, what would have been better/worse. Off to read some fanfic again hehehe.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 08:19 PM)wesen Wrote: But Adalind casting a spell on Juliette was reactive though.
No, it was not. Revenge is never reactive. If Adalind had been under attack and had cast that spell as a defensive move, that would have been reactive. But in this case she had already lost her battle with Nick. She was at no risk of harm from either Nick or Juliette, and what she did to Juliette was entirely unnecessary.
Adalind having sex with Renard in order to impregnate herself with a royal baby she could trade away for the return of her powers, however, was completely proactive.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - irukandji - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 08:19 PM)wesen Wrote: But Adalind casting a spell on Juliette was reactive though. She only did it (reacted) because Nick stole her powers. Yes, she initiated the whole amnesia thing, but like I said, it was only in response to what was done to her. I would imagine that if Adalind had been proactive, she would have acted on her own initiative to go after Juliette before Nick had stolen her powers. After her baby was taken from her, Adalind felt pressured by Viktor to steal Nick's powers from him, because she felt that was the only way she could be reunited with Diana. I think it's almost like if someone held your child hostage and you were under pressure to follow their instructions, you are reacting to that threat. Similar circumstances in season 5 when Adalind left Nick. It because she was pressured/threatened and it was the only way she felt she could protect Nick and Kelly. It was her own initiative to do so. She felt she was taking things into her own hands by 'following' Bonaparte's orders, just like she followed Renard's and the Royals orders.
If Adalind was being reactive, why'd she apologize to Eve?
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - wesen - 09-18-2017
(09-18-2017, 08:54 PM)FaceInTheCrowd Wrote:(09-18-2017, 08:19 PM)wesen Wrote: But Adalind casting a spell on Juliette was reactive though.
No, it was not. Revenge is never reactive. If Adalind had been under attack and had cast that spell as a defensive move, that would have been reactive. But in this case she had already lost her battle with Nick. She was at no risk of harm from either Nick or Juliette, and what she did to Juliette was entirely unnecessary.
Adalind having sex with Renard in order to impregnate herself with a royal baby she could trade away for the return of her powers, however, was completely proactive.
I'm not disputing that what she did was unnecessary, and yes she was motivated by revenge but it was in response to what was done to her. She didn't plan to take out Juliette before Nick took her powers. I think when she decided to sell her baby in order to get her powers back, I see that as her being proactive because it was her own idea, it wasn't for revenge, no one told her to do it, she wasn't under any pressure to act.
Quote:To be reactive is to be ready to react or respond to something else — as opposed to ready to act on one's own. A person who's reactive does things only in response to others.]https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/reactive
To react is to do something in response to something else. When someone pinches you.
for example, you react.
(09-18-2017, 08:55 PM)irukandji Wrote:(09-18-2017, 08:19 PM)wesen Wrote: But Adalind casting a spell on Juliette was reactive though. She only did it (reacted) because Nick stole her powers. Yes, she initiated the whole amnesia thing, but like I said, it was only in response to what was done to her. I would imagine that if Adalind had been proactive, she would have acted on her own initiative to go after Juliette before Nick had stolen her powers. After her baby was taken from her, Adalind felt pressured by Viktor to steal Nick's powers from him, because she felt that was the only way she could be reunited with Diana. I think it's almost like if someone held your child hostage and you were under pressure to follow their instructions, you are reacting to that threat. Similar circumstances in season 5 when Adalind left Nick. It because she was pressured/threatened and it was the only way she felt she could protect Nick and Kelly. It was her own initiative to do so. She felt she was taking things into her own hands by 'following' Bonaparte's orders, just like she followed Renard's and the Royals orders.
If Adalind was being reactive, why'd she apologize to Eve?
Being reactive doesn't absolve you from any wrongdoing you may have committed. I would say that Juliette helped to kill Nick's mother because she was 'reacting' to what she felt was done to her by Nick. Doesn't absolve her from her actions, but she wasn't being proactive when she set up Nick's mother. The choices she made in season 4 when she turned into a hexenbiest were all reactive.
RE: Why Juliette as a character didn't click with the audience - FaceInTheCrowd - 09-18-2017
Not mentioned in your posted definition is the timing. If the action is not more or less immediate, then reactive becomes proactive.
If you hit me and I hit you right back, that's reactive, especially if I think you're about to do it again. If I wait a couple of days, ambush you in another place and then hit you, then it's proactive.