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+---- Thread: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” (/Thread-Uncomfortable-Truths-are-Exposed-in-%E2%80%9CThe-Son-Also-Rises%E2%80%9D)
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - Robyn - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 04:38 PM)irukandji Wrote: I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone directly, Robyn. I just brought up Adalind because I have read an argument, which has been presented on more than several occasions, somewhat exonerating Adalind and calling her a pawn for doing what she was told.I didn’t think you were pointing, and only meant that while Renard isn’t responsible for Adalind’s actions, he is responsible for the fallout that occurred because of his own intent/ambitions. But the writers and most debates on the subject ignore Renard’s actions and Nick’s inactions and only focus on the conniving, evil women.
I can't hold Adalind over Juliette/Eve or Eve/Juliette over Adalind and argue which one's actions were worse. They were both despicable. I'm not letting Renard off the hook here, he's a scumbag.
However, there is something so lowlife about women doing a man's dirty work when they have no actionable reason (such as revenge) to be there in the first place.
And the end result is that once Nick & Renard struck their deal, the male characters returned to life as usual while the female characters are homeless, penniless, and reliant on forgiveness and favor.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - syscrash - 02-23-2017
Robyn "To dismiss Juliette’s intent is like saying that since Nick was in the room and prevented Adalind from actually killing Marie she must not have intended to." How did you comprehend my point as actions control intent. Intent is not determined by results.
As for intent there is nothing in the show that says or suggest Juliette intent was anything other then helping the Royals recover Diana. Was her motivation to hurt Adalind most likely. But then Adalind intent was also to help the Royals recover Diana. Was her motivation for turning in Kelly as the one who had Diana and act of revenge. I am sure it was. Just like Adalind going to kidnap Juliette was a way to hurt Nick for helping to take Diana. Adalind went into a complete woge and tried to hit Juliette in the head with a vase.
You keep wanting to make Juliette'[s action to be deranged and murderous. Yet you can not point to one thing in the she that point to either Adalind and Juliette having murderous intent. Even Adalind using violence to kidnap Juliette does not show murderous intent.
But as for culpability Adalind and Juliette contributed to the results. I was only pointing out that with out Juliette you would have had the same results. With out Adalind Kelly would still be in hiding with Diana some where.
AS for putting Diana in danger. At no time has Diana ever been in danger. The danger was to those around her. Even on the run from the castle Diana was never in danger. Diana dead is of no value to anyone. Kenneth would have protected Diana with his life. Kennneth knew Diana dies he dies. The Royals would have had his head.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - brandon - 02-23-2017
Adalind wanted to know where her daughter is. Act on impulse. Víctor thought otherwise. Sometimes people find more guilty than the one executing the action. Juliette carried out her actions motivated by hatred and rage. I do not think the same about Adalind actions.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - MarylikesGrimm - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 05:32 PM)syscrash Wrote: AS for putting Diana in danger. At no time has Diana ever been in danger. The danger was to those around her. Even on the run from the castle Diana was never in danger. Diana dead is of no value to anyone. Kenneth would have protected Diana with his life. Kennneth knew Diana dies he dies. The Royals would have had his head.
No, the royals wanted Diana physically alive but not mentally. Diana's metal health was put in great danger which could to led to an early death for her or for her to be tricked into becoming evil.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - syscrash - 02-23-2017
Quote:And the end result is that once Nick & Renard struck their deal, the male characters returned to life as usual while the female characters are homeless, penniless, and reliant on forgiveness and favor.There are things to consider that make that observation not quite accurate.
Sean if wealthy so no mater what he would and will always land on his feet. So he is able to do what he wants. He has no need for anyone else to survive.
Nick is living in a warehouse. had it been destroyed he would have not had anywhere to go. This was shown in the beginning of season 6 where he was also homeless.
Eve has never given the impression that she had to be anywhere. From the beginning Juliette has always been perceived as being independent and is only somewhere because she wanted to be there. A good example is she is leaving the fome because she no longer wants to be there. Even Juliette when she left Nick she choose to stay in her car. She then left Sean's because she no longer wanted to be there. Even when she started to work with Kenneth, she had no expectations he was going to take care of her.
Adalind on the other hand only in season one has she been on her own. But even then she was dependent on Sean. For the next five season she has dependent on one person or the other. Most of the time that support was based on her being a desirable female.
Adalind stayed with Eric because she was his lover. She stayed with Viktor after he bought her a closet full of cloths. She then went to Nick for protection. With Diana she went to Sean for protection.
Juliette nor Eve has ever gone to anyone expecting anything. Even when Juliette went to Sean she expected nothing and was offended when Sean asked something of her.
Quote:Adalind wanted to know where her daughter is. Act on impulse. Víctor thought otherwise. Sometimes people find more guilty than the one executing the action. Juliette carried out her actions motivated by hatred and rage. I do not think the same about Adalind actions.When Adalind went to Juleitte's She intended on kidnapping Juliette. She used violence to achieve her goal. As for motivation and her state of mind. We don't have to speculate on Adalind wanting revenge. We heard her taunt Juliette with a recap of her sleeping with Nick.
Juliette may have been motivated by hatred and rage. But that is speculation. But she did not actually do a single violent act. Adalind showed her hate by taunting Juliette. She then initiated physical violence. As they say she throw the first punch.
Quote:No, the royals wanted Diana physically alive but not mentally. Diana's metal health was put in great danger which could to led to an early death for her or for her to be tricked into becoming evil.There is no bases of Diana mentally health being an issue. There is no statement showing the King wanted Diana for anything other then her being his granddaughter. Ever time someone found out she had abilities where surprised by the knowledge.
Even Kelly statement of how Diana is raised would effect her. Has been proven false. There are so many examples of nothing effects Diana. The only difference is if Diana had of been with the Royals she would not have been present to help with the prophecy. Being with the Royals would have done nothing to change what she is.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - Robyn - 02-23-2017
Quote:How did you comprehend my point as actions control intent. Intent is not determined by results.Exactly. As in my example, that Adalind failed to kill Marie does not change her intent.
Quote:As for intent there is nothing in the show that says or suggest Juliette intent was anything other then helping the Royals recover Diana. Was her motivation to hurt Adalind most likely. But then Adalind intent was also to help the Royals recover Diana. Was her motivation for turning in Kelly as the one who had Diana and act of revenge. I am sure it was. Just like Adalind going to kidnap Juliette was a way to hurt Nick for helping to take Diana. Adalind went into a complete woge and tried to hit Juliette in the head with a vase.I’m not interested in running a tally to establish that each time one character did something, the other did something worse. Neither is responsible for the other’s actions. Adalind wanted her baby back, and I have no reason to believe she cared about the wellbeing of the kidnappers. If Adalind wanted revenge in addition to getting Diana back, that choice wasn’t forced on her. If Juliette wanted revenge on Adalind and/or Nick that choice wasn’t forced on her. And if Juliette’s only intent was to help out the Royals, then her actions are strikingly similar to Adalind helping out Renard.
Quote:AS for putting Diana in danger. At no time has Diana ever been in danger. The danger was to those around her. Even on the run from the castle Diana was never in danger. Diana dead is of no value to anyone. Kenneth would have protected Diana with his life. Kennneth knew Diana dies he dies. The Royals would have had his head.It doesn’t matter what you as viewer know about Diana’s powers or safety. The question is what Juliette knew or was concerned about. You expected Adalind to concede that Kelly knew what was best for Diana, but dismiss that Juliette should have even suspected that Diana would be at risk when Kenneth tried to take her from Kelly by force.
Quote:You keep wanting to make Juliette'[s action to be deranged and murderous. Yet you can not point to one thing in the she that point to either Adalind and Juliette having murderous intent. Even Adalind using violence to kidnap Juliette does not show murderous intent.I haven’t said a freaking thing about a murderous anything. Your girl became a Hexenbiest and went off the deep end. That’s the short and long of it. Get over it. My girl became a mousy introvert. But there’s no need for me to make excuses or dwell on what I can’t change.
Quote:There are things to consider that make that observation not quite accurate.The only conclusion to this debate is that Juliette, Eve, whatever moniker she may chose, is absolutely perfect to the bitter end. Adalind is everything that is wrong, evil, undesirable, whatever negative description you care to add. This is too ridiculous to debate.
Sean if wealthy so no mater what he would and will always land on his feet. So he is able to do what he wants. He has no need for anyone else to survive.
Nick is living in a warehouse. had it been destroyed he would have not had anywhere to go. This was shown in the beginning of season 6 where he was also homeless.
Eve has never given the impression that she had to be anywhere. From the beginning Juliette has always been perceived as being independent and is only somewhere because she wanted to be there. A good example is she is leaving the fome because she no longer wants to be there. Even Juliette when she left Nick she choose to stay in her car. She then left Sean's because she no longer wanted to be there. Even when she started to work with Kenneth, she had no expectations he was going to take care of her.
Adalind on the other hand only in season one has she been on her own. But even then she was dependent on Sean. For the next five season she has dependent on one person or the other. Most of the time that support was based on her being a desirable female.
Adalind stayed with Eric because she was his lover. She stayed with Viktor after he bought her a closet full of cloths. She then went to Nick for protection. With Diana she went to Sean for protection.
Juliette nor Eve has ever gone to anyone expecting anything. Even when Juliette went to Sean she expected nothing and was offended when Sean asked something of her.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - MarylikesGrimm - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 05:58 PM)syscrash Wrote: Adalind on the other hand only in season one has she been on her own. But even then she was dependent on Sean.
Adalind was not dependent on Sean in season 1. It was her mother who was. Adalind was working for Sean to pay off her mother's debts and when she lost her powers she was upset because both her and Sean rejected her. She put together a revenge plan that mostly occurred during season 2 without outside help.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - syscrash - 02-23-2017
Quote:It doesn’t matter what you as viewer know about Diana’s powers or safety. The question is what Juliette knew or was concerned about. You expected Adalind to concede that Kelly knew what was best for Diana, but dismiss that Juliette should have even suspected that Diana would be at risk when Kenneth tried to take her from Kelly by force.From when Adalind came to the house with Diana. Juleitte realized the value of Diana. They all knew The royals would never hurt Diana. How would Diana have been in danger. Kelly would not have hurt her. Kenneth would not have hurt her. So how would she have got hurt.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - MarylikesGrimm - 02-23-2017
(02-23-2017, 05:58 PM)syscrash Wrote: For the next five season she has dependent on one person or the other. Most of the time that support was based on her being a desirable female.
Adalind stayed with Eric because she was his lover.
Eric wanted Adalind to get the keys and the sex was just a side thing that his family was against.
RE: Uncomfortable Truths are Exposed in “The Son Also Rises” - brandon - 02-23-2017
If Juliette "Hexenbiest"did not care about Nick. To set the trailer on fire? Let them kill their neighbors and Kelly? Must have stood aside and leave them in peace - Adalind and Nick-.