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+--- Thread: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. (/Thread-Intelligent-Female-input-sought-guys-let%E2%80%99s-just-sit-this-one-out)
Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - izzy - 07-02-2016
So, no surprise I am a male, one with some old fashioned ideas tempered by lifetime of experience.
I think women have been in a unique place the past several decades, where they can decide in and of themselves without undo societal pressure one way or another, to go into the traditional stay-at-home-mom role, enter the workforce as a career woman and balance work, family etc, or switch between the two(i.e work, stay at home and then back to their career), or simply be a career woman with no nuclear family. It is not to say men do not also have these choices but it is more uncommon and the societal expectation are different (note this thread is very ethnocentric as I simply only know about modern U.S. culture).
I started this thread for a specific reason, a part of it is deeply personal that I shall not go into publicly. But I am very curious how the women of the forum feel about Adalind, Juliette, Rosalee and Truble (and any other females you want to toss)in portrayal as women? In particular I note in some threads some voiced a bit of disappointment or dissent that a female character seemed to be retrofitted to a more demure presence. Now as the above self-described male, I figured, well not much, given from my perspective choices abound. But I am not a woman and it seemed there was some indication that there was a minor debasement or some words I cannot put to font to describe the sentiments that seemed to be trying to be conveyed. So I am very curious as to the female perspective; I am specially asking for the ever thoughtful Irukandji and Robyn to participate and of course welcome the opinions of any other thoughtful, sentient female.
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - speakeasy - 07-03-2016
I read this thread three times and I still feel I'm missing the point, so guess I'm neither a sentient or thoughtful female, but going to wedge in regardless.
I always get a whiff of misogyny in your posts, Izzy, that's just my opinion, not a statement of fact. I think I'm interpreting them with some prejudice because of that.
But in response to the post I can only say this. Women have liberated themselves and insist on being treated equally with men in all areas of life. We also acknowledge the need to act accordingly and accept the new responsibilities of that liberation - such as giving up the social niceties and protections that went along with a male-dominated life style. As such, all the women of Grimm seem to come over as independent thinkers and very certain of their worth to this fan.
I suggest no man ponder too much on what women want of other women and men and concentrate on getting over it and enjoying living in a world of more and more equality.
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - helicase - 07-03-2016
You do realize that you are getting into a minefield, right? I mostly breeze through this forum as a way of finding updates and interesting bits of speculation, but your post caught my eye as this is an area that I have spent a lot of time thinking about. So here are my specs: I am 30, female, married with a small child and with very well-defined and rigorous career goals.
(07-02-2016, 05:57 PM)izzy Wrote: So, no surprise I am a male, one with some old fashioned ideas tempered by lifetime of experience.
I think women have been in a unique place the past several decades, where they can decide in and of themselves without undo societal pressure one way or another, to go into the traditional stay-at-home-mom role, enter the workforce as a career woman and balance work, family etc, or switch between the two(i.e work, stay at home and then back to their career), or simply be a career woman with no nuclear family. It is not to say men do not also have these choices but it is more uncommon and the societal expectation are different (note this thread is very ethnocentric as I simply only know about modern U.S. culture).
It seems like you are aware that there is both the idea that there are more possibilities than ever before for women and also that we are not yet actually free of societal expectations. You have surely heard of the 'mommy wars', right? I work a lot sometimes. I just finished a month where my week was capped at 80 hrs/wk. Capped because otherwise you go over. August will be similar. My schedule makes it so that I am thankfully spared a lot of the judgement and 'advice' and 'opinions' that abound at gatherings for families with small children just because I drop in and out by the month and never really become established enough with other families not under the same pressures as mine. Doesn't mean that I don't encounter people who feel the need to let me know how I should be doing things or see the judgements that others make.
I also never really considered it an option to not work as a woman. I was raised by a largely single mother who struggled because she had counted on the men in her life to support her as she took care of the kids. Well, she is now divorced, without higher education or retirement and in her late 50s. Some people can make this work but it places the one who does take care of the kids in a tenuous position as they are not the one bringing home the bacon and thus often get less say over how it is used and often must assume a lesser role.
I imagine this will change in the future as it is becoming increasingly common that the majority of college classes are made of women and so on up. My medical school tries not to have more than 60% of the class be women and they are not the only one, for example.
The prospect of having children is what really messes things up. I am in year 8 of a 9 year program whereupon I will have all of my degrees, but I will still have another 4-7 years of training before I am able to actually reach my final career goal. I would be 35-38 then and I am extremely aware of what that means for fertility. So I had my daughter at a relatively more flexible stage of my training. When I will have another is up in the air. This is a common problem for people in my career path. There are multiple seminars and discussion groups that focus on just this topic at my institution- and that are all focused at women, like somehow this is only a problem for women. These societal expectations are everywhere.
(07-02-2016, 05:57 PM)izzy Wrote: I started this thread for a specific reason, a part of it deeply personal that I shall to go into publicly. But I am very curious how the women of the forum feel about Adalind, Juliette, Rosalee and Truble (and any other females you want to toss)in portrayal as women? In particular I note in some threads some voiced a bit of disappointment or dissent that a female character seemed to be retrofitted to a more demure presence. Now as the above self-described male, I figured, well not much, given from my perspective choices abound. But I am not a woman and it seemed there was some indication that there was a minor debasement or some words I cannot put to font to describe the sentiments that seemed to be trying to be conveyed. So I am very curious as to the female perspective; I am specially asking for the ever thoughtful Irukandji and Robyn to participate and of course welcome the opinions of any other thoughtful, sentient female.
Even in my drive-by glimpses of this forum, I have encountered a lot of judgements made about the women of this show. I don't know what new things you are hoping to glean with this posting that have not been said before.
I am guessing that you are wanting to talk about them as a way at getting at a specific question you have but do not want to be explicit about. Maybe a concern about a relative? a friend? These are TV characters, who at their heart will always be incomplete because they only exist for the brief moments of screen time we see them and that the writers choose to include.
But what is your real concern? You need not be specific with the details, but there seems to be a real question there.
In general, I can tell you that this is a very sensitive and controversial topic. You will not run out of opinions on the subject. Also, in the US there are very few pro-family policies that would make this burden easier, especially as compared to other developed countries (see the last article).
Here is a sampling:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-cant-have-it-all/309020/
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21600998-after-falling-years-proportion-mums-who-stay-home-rising-return
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/kids-benefit-from-having-a-working-mom
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2014/06/23/global-view-how-u-s-policies-to-help-working-families-rank-in-the-world/
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - izzy - 07-03-2016
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: You do realize that you are getting into a minefield, right?Well first of all thank you for the reply. Honestly I did not think this would an explosive post or one many people would reply to. It is just something I have been sort of thinking about on and off for a long time and wanted input on as I cannot resolve it on my own.
What sparked the thread was comments a couple of posters I respect made (or at least my interpretation of them) and then the way the central females characters on Grimm are portrayed. I see them through the male filter but then I started thinking maybe I cannot even imagine what it is like to see them through the female filter. There are vastly different stereotypical forces exerted by society that are just hard to grasp unless you experience them.
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: It seems like you are aware that there is both the idea that there are more possibilities than ever before for women and also that we are not yet actually free of societal expectations.Oh, the one thing I do understand is women are not free from strangers, family, and loved ones who are harshly critical of the choices they make in regard to children, family, and career and volunteer their opinion. My observation is it is very different than the pressure exerted on a male. And that is more or lee the genesis of my query. It is more how do women feel about the changing way the same characters on Grimm have been portrayed.
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: You have surely heard of the 'mommy wars', right?And no, I had not heard of mommie wars, but it may be an age thing, I am in my early 50s. I just asked the wife and she had not heard of it either. So hopefully Google shall be my salvation on that topic.
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: Doesn't mean that I don't encounter people who feel the need to let me know how I should be doing things or see the judgements that others make.I think I can very well imagine.
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: Some people can make this work but it places the one who does take care of the kids in a tenuous position as they are not the one bringing home the bacon and thus often get less say over how it is used and often must assume a lesser role.Duly noted.
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: Some The prospect of having children is what really messes things up…I would be 35-38 then and I am extremely aware of what that means for fertility.Yes. I think about that one a lot as it is something that is easily visible when you are out and about (i.e. the relative age of women who are notably pregnant).
(07-03-2016, 10:05 AM)helicase Wrote: I am guessing that you are wanting to talk about them as a way at getting at a specific question you have but do not want to be explicit about. Maybe a concern about a relative? a friend? These are TV characters, who at their heart will always be incomplete because they only exist for the brief moments of screen time we see them and that the writers choose to include.Oh this is under the heading of curiosity motivated by the experiences of my mother and grandmother (so think 1890 and 1920 vintage women) as well as my spouse.
But what is your real concern? You need not be specific with the details, but there seems to be a real question there.
I was trying to be vague in order to not lead anyone. But it comes down to this, Adalind was portrayed one way in seasons 1-4 and then very differently in season 5. From my perspective she simply changed roles somewhat among the choices she had. But then based on comments from some of the female members of the forum made me think women might see that very differently. And since I would much rather spend my free time cuddled up to a woman than a man I think it behooves me to strive for greater understanding.
I’ll read the articles.
Thank you for the response.
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - brandon - 07-04-2016
I would say that from the beginning there was always prejudices between women and men.
both genders are able to work in different areas.something embarrassing was when the woman was with several men,if to the man was a "winner".
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - irukandji - 07-05-2016
I think that the Grimm oriented females (Trubel, Marie, and Kelly) seem to have much more freedom than the human/wesen/hexenbiest females (Juliette, Rosalee, Adalind). My opinion only here.
I really wanted to talk about Adalind though, since I've been doing the most thinking about her.
Adalind has never really been a totally free character in her own right. She's been called a pawn of both Sean and Catherine's because she was tasked to handle their dirty work. After that, she was tied to the royals, seeking Diana. When that didn't work out, she was tied to baby Kelly, then to Nick, back to Sean, and finally, to Diana. I find it interesting that she isn't even allowed to hold a job of her own without baby Kelly being present. I wonder if she'll be allowed to hold her job during season 6.
I like Adalind as a mother, don't get me wrong. But I don't believe there's a need to force the point home by showing her at work as an attorney with her baby present. It certainly doesn't add any depth to her character, it just makes it harder to take her seriously as an attorney.
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - brandon - 07-05-2016
the strength of a "GRIMM" is not equal to a "HEXENBIEST".It has different power, perhaps similar in physical power.
Marie and Kelly took his father to the train.Trubel had Nick -who taught him-and then Meisner.
Adalind received his mother's lessons-but this is carried away by their impulses.Elizabet already said regarding the last spell:the mirror spell was too dangerous for her.an expert "Hexenbiest"analyze their spells before throwing.Adalind has to grow mentally and learn to teach her daughter the good and the bad.Diana is not the first child murdered-I refer to previous chapter
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - irukandji - 07-05-2016
Just a few observations about Trubel. As I said earlier, it seems to me that Trubel is one of the few unencumbered females in Grimm. Nick was her mentor, but in my opinion, she's really subject to no one's rule. Meisner was her boss, but I consider that a loose term. I still get a chuckle out of the fact that she couldn't remember the name of the organization she worked for.
There is an unusual thing about Trubel that sets her apart from the other female characters in Grimm. She attempted to murder Juliette and did not have to answer for her crime.
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - Robyn - 07-05-2016
I’m inclined to agree with irukandji about Trubel, Marie, and Kelly, but would add Rosalee. Yes, Rosalee is as much in Nick’s shadow as any of the others, but, she arrived as self sufficient and having options. Her decision to stay, take over the shop, and begin a relationship with Monroe were choices available to her, not necessity. And nothing indicates she couldn't move on and make a life for herself should it become necessary.
Kelly is perhaps the most independent of the female characters. In the fictional world she put her Grimm responsibilities first, and I think the character would be pretty much the same if in a real world environment. She might marry, even have a child or two, but I don’t see her baking cookies and joining the PTA. Kelly would likely work for a CIA type agency, off the books, torturing & interrogating those who have been snatched off the street without government or legal oversight. Not the type of person I want my children, male or female, to follow as a role model, but if you’re looking for someone who’s indifferent to legalities and morals, Kelly Burkhardt is your man woman.
Trubel is the product of her childhood compounded by being a Grimm. But I think she made significant strides in becoming her own person during S4 & S5. That she chose to stay with HW because she believed in their mission rather than rejoin Nick says a lot about her personal growth.
I don’t know enough about Marie to make a determination, but it appears that once Nick was on his own Marie went off to do her own thing. She didn’t continue keeping house and wait for Nick to give her grandchildren.
Juliette and Adalind have proven they not only survive extreme hardships, but are emotionally stronger after each experience. However, because the show redraws and retrofits these female characters to accommodate the central character & the storylines, it’s difficult to evaluate them beyond this single strength.
As much as I applaud them as survivors pitted against overwhelming circumstances, neither has been able to extract herself from an unhealthy relationship or dangerous environment before it was too late to prevent harm. Both women are highly educated and established in their careers. Yet neither have benefited from their professional lives because they were too wrapped up in the personal & professional ambitions of the men in their lives.
Responding specifically about Adalind’s changing role in S5:
My disappointment & complaint wasn’t that she zealously embraced motherhood. I liked that aspect, and actually expected it based on her reaction to Diana in S3. Given the opportunity I think Adalind would have embraced mothering Diana with the same passion.
My problem is that the show equated a ‘good’ Adalind with a subjugated Adalind. While I believe Adalind would do whatever was necessary to ensure her and the baby’s safety, I don’t believe she would immediately lay herself bare and completely trust those who had betrayed her under the ruse of helping protect her first child. Adalind didn’t strive to achieve an amicable relationship with Nick for the sake of their son, which is what I expected/hoped for, she became mousy & submissive and fell hopelessly in love with him, never questioning his motives. That indicates Stockholm syndrome, that she’s still emotionally damaged with abandonment issues, or an altered version of Meisner’s brainwash.
(07-05-2016, 06:08 AM)irukandji Wrote: I find it interesting that she isn't even allowed to hold a job of her own without baby Kelly being present. I wonder if she'll be allowed to hold her job during season 6.One side of the debate is that the show manufactured a scene for Bonaparte to issue his demand/threat while the baby was present. It certainly made the scene more creepy watching Adalind surmise that if he made a move toward Kelly there wasn’t anything she could do to stop him.
I like Adalind as a mother, don't get me wrong. But I don't believe there's a need to force the point home by showing her at work as an attorney with her baby present. It certainly doesn't add any depth to her character, it just makes it harder to take her seriously as an attorney.
On the flip side, it’s worth noting that Adalind wasn’t particularly interested in returning to work until after her Hexenbiest returned. Her employer singled out her value as a Hexenbiest, so Adalind may not have had the confidence to return to work as a human. Also, she went back to work just before she told Nick about her Hexenbiest. Maybe she wanted to establish an income source before telling him.
As for keeping the baby with her, that may stem from paranoia. Have a child snatched and you’re likely to be overprotected with the other one. Other than the one time she left Kelly with Rosalee to meet up with Sean at night, I don’t recall Adalind leaving the baby with anyone. I don’t even recall a scene where Nick was home with the baby while Adalind was grocery shopping.
(07-05-2016, 04:01 PM)irukandji Wrote: There is an unusual thing about Trubel that sets her apart from the other female characters in Grimm. She attempted to murder Juliette and did not have to answer for her crime.Nick had already given orders (given his permission) to kill Juliette on sight. When Trubel entered the house, Juliette was one fatal swipe from taking Nick out. Nick later acknowledged to Trubel that he’d be dead had she not been there that night.
RE: Intelligent Female input sought, guys let’s just sit this one out. - irukandji - 07-05-2016
(07-05-2016, 05:24 PM)Robyn Wrote: Nick had already given orders (given his permission) to kill Juliette on sight. When Trubel entered the house, Juliette was one fatal swipe from taking Nick out. Nick later acknowledged to Trubel that he’d be dead had she not been there that night.
There are many on the forum who believe Juliette should be begging Nick's forgiveness for betraying his mother. Yet, Nick ordered Juliette killed and Trubel attempted to murder her, no concerns raised or questions asked.
The difference here is that Juliette is held accountable, but Trubel is not.