+- Grimm Forum (https://grimmforum.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Grimm Universe (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Grimm-Universe)
+--- Forum: Episode Discussions (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Episode-Discussions)
+---- Forum: Season 5 (https://grimmforum.com/forum/Forum-Season-5)
+---- Thread: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger (/Thread-S5E02-Clear-and-Wesen-Danger)
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - New Guy - 11-10-2015
(11-10-2015, 02:47 PM)irukandji Wrote:(11-10-2015, 02:24 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji,
Yes the Marshalls were doomed. It was Renard who sealed their fate. Renard released Wemlinger to them. Renard knew Wemlinger was Wesen and had violently murdered the investment company's owner. He also knew about prior arrests. Yet he decided not to warn the Marshalls. Not only is blood on his hands (again), but he acted as an accomplice to the 4 claw mark gang.
Are you saying Renard was entitled to cut off the ear of his hired reaper to help him "listen better"? Is he entitled to have all the officers in his precinct kneel down before him?
Renard has been a first class SOB to Nick. He has failed Portland and put the citizens in mortal danger. Nick more than entitled to Grimmly discipline Renard. He has a duty and obligation to the public he serves to take Renard down.
New Guy
Hi New Guy-
You know, it's a funny thing, a kind of weird comparison I noticed here. Nick, in his usual flagrant way, wanted to completely disregard the warrant. Renard actually complied with it. Why do you suppose that is?
Hi Irukandji,
The favor of a reply is requested...
Are you saying Renard was entitled to cut off the ear of his hired reaper to help him "listen better"?
I'll recognize and reply to your question:
Nick (and Renard) knew that simple compliance with the warrant would put the two Marshals in mortal danger. Nick wanted to protect them from Wemlinger. Renard didn't give a flip if Wemlinger killed them.
Again IMHO, this is a situation where morals and ethics conflict with law. Renard complied with law but failed his moral and ethical duty to protect the marshalls.
New Guy
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - irukandji - 11-10-2015
(11-10-2015, 03:28 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji,
The favor of a reply is requested...
Are you saying Renard was entitled to cut off the ear of his hired reaper to help him "listen better"?
No, I am not saying that.
(11-10-2015, 03:28 PM)New Guy Wrote: I'll recognize and reply to your question:
Nick (and Renard) knew that simple compliance with the warrant would put the two Marshals in mortal danger. Nick wanted to protect them from Wemlinger. Renard didn't give a flip if Wemlinger killed them.
I could buy this argument if:
a) Hank found conclusive proof that Wemlinger murdered Childs, *not* his assumptions, his gut feeling, the fact he had his lucky rabbit's foot with him, whatever. Conclusive proof.
b) The two marshalls were careless and decided Wemlinger didn't need to be handcuffed.
c) The was only one marshall and he wasn't armed.
d) Wemlinger was a known serial killer.
e) The two marshalls were inexperienced greenhorns who took no precautions with Wemlinger.
None of the above applies.
Renard isn't at fault for this just because in your eyes he wasn't bleeding sympathy for the two marshalls.
Your argument is that all it would take is Renard warning the two marshalls and they might have lived. Well, Nick warned them and they still were murdered. If you're looking for someone to blame, blame Nick. He failed to warn them properly and they died as the result.
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - speakeasy - 11-10-2015
Renard seems to be a good cop to me. His father's wife (his name was King Frederick, but we've never been told her name) is still Queen of the House of Kronenberg, one of the seven royal families. Before they had to flee Austria when he was still a child, she tried to have Sean (who is a Prince, although a bastard by birth) and his mother, Elizabeth, killed. He appears to a target for elimination by the Royals, so he's probably learned to do whatever it takes to stay alive, which doesn't always include playing by Marquis of Queensberry rules. Renard had said more than once that the Royal families are trying to rid the world of democracies (so did Kelly Burkhardt) and reestablish the old power, position, and privileges of monarchical rule in their place. According to Kelly, they have their people in very high places in governmental, commercial, and other influential places around the globe. He's been waging a fight against them right from the start of the show; it's why he is working with the Resistance and Meisner. He doesn't want to see the keys in the hands of the families because he knows they would use the hidden object of power to oppress people. He's no choir boy, but he's always come across as being a more rather than less, ethical sort to me.
I know he started out working to get Nick's key and to have Aunt Marie assassinated, but he did come clean about that to Nick, explaining he didn't know everything at the time those things took place; he was just trying to get hold of that key. We know he returned it to Nick, imo, to show his desire to form an alliance with him. He's a hard one to know, but I feel he's basically one of the good guys. Which is not to say he isn't ambitious; he is, and ambitious folks always bear watching.
Think the Captain did alert the US Marshall's people with the info that there had been a death threat (on Wemlinger?) and at the gas station, the one Marshall was told that help was on the way and he said something like 'we'll wait here for them' into his cell phone.
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - New Guy - 11-10-2015
(11-10-2015, 04:38 PM)irukandji Wrote:Hi Irukandji,(11-10-2015, 03:28 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji,
The favor of a reply is requested...
Are you saying Renard was entitled to cut off the ear of his hired reaper to help him "listen better"?
No, I am not saying that.
(11-10-2015, 03:28 PM)New Guy Wrote: I'll recognize and reply to your question:
Nick (and Renard) knew that simple compliance with the warrant would put the two Marshals in mortal danger. Nick wanted to protect them from Wemlinger. Renard didn't give a flip if Wemlinger killed them.
I could buy this argument if:
a) Hank found conclusive proof that Wemlinger murdered Childs, *not* his assumptions, his gut feeling, the fact he had his lucky rabbit's foot with him, whatever. Conclusive proof.
b) The two marshalls were careless and decided Wemlinger didn't need to be handcuffed.
c) The was only one marshall and he wasn't armed.
d) Wemlinger was a known serial killer.
e) The two marshalls were inexperienced greenhorns who took no precautions with Wemlinger.
None of the above applies.
Renard isn't at fault for this just because in your eyes he wasn't bleeding sympathy for the two marshalls.
Your argument is that all it would take is Renard warning the two marshalls and they might have lived. Well, Nick warned them and they still were murdered. If you're looking for someone to blame, blame Nick. He failed to warn them properly and they died as the result.
Thanks for your reply.
Your points a - e are worth consideration. However, Renard is well aware of Wesen crime in Portland. His two top detectives provided information vital to the detention and transport of Wemlinger. He decided to do nothing and now two US Marshalls are dead. If the justice department deposes him under oath will he just plead ignorance?
New Guy
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - irukandji - 11-10-2015
(11-10-2015, 05:25 PM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Irukandji,
Thanks for your reply.
Your points a - e are worth consideration. However, Renard is well aware of Wesen crime in Portland. His two top detectives provided information vital to the detention and transport of Wemlinger. He decided to do nothing and now two US Marshalls are dead. If the justice department deposes him under oath will he just plead ignorance?
New Guy
Hey New Guy-
That would be a very interesting scenario if it happened, wouldn't it?
This episode got me thinking about a few things.
We know Wemlinger's a dangerous man. However, he worked with Childs for a while without doing any harm to the guy. It was only when Childs discovered the half million dollar loss and ordered him to call the police that Wemlinger retaliated. I'm not taking Wemlinger's side in all of this, I just want to bring up something.
Hank and Pogue question Wemlinger and he for the most part cooperates with them. Hank then decides to bring him in, and if I remember correctly, contrary to Pogue's suggestion that there was no evidence Wemlinger committed the murder.
You were talking about blame earlier, that Renard should take the blame for the marshalls' deaths. But in reality, Renard had nothing to do with what happened. It actually started with Hank and ended with Nick.
Hank secretly calls Nick and tells him to come down, despite the fact that Renard put him on leave. Nick watches Hank questioning Wemlinger behind the two way mirror. At one point Hank antagonizes and physically manhandles Wemlinger, throwing him into the mirror and daring him to woge. Which of course he does. Later, after the marshals take custody, Nick makes a point of telling them (right in front of Wemlinger) that he's dangerous.
Was Wemlinger provoked by Hank and Nick into attacking the marshals? Did they physically and mentally push him to the brink where he felt he had to retaliate?
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - Hexenadler - 11-11-2015
(11-10-2015, 06:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Was Wemlinger provoked by Hank and Nick into attacking the marshals? Did they physically and mentally push him to the brink where he felt he had to retaliate?
Wemlinger was a ticking time bomb and a murderous fanatic waiting to explode regardless of the circumstances. Nick and Hank both knew it.
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - New Guy - 11-11-2015
(11-11-2015, 05:53 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:Hi Hexenadler,(11-10-2015, 06:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Was Wemlinger provoked by Hank and Nick into attacking the marshals? Did they physically and mentally push him to the brink where he felt he had to retaliate?
Wemlinger was a ticking time bomb and a murderous fanatic waiting to explode regardless of the circumstances. Nick and Hank both knew it.
Since Nick and Hank flat out told Renard about Wemlinger all three knew. Nick tried to warn the Marshalls, but Renard blew Nick off and left the Marshalls to die.
New Guy
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - Hexenadler - 11-11-2015
(11-11-2015, 06:21 AM)New Guy Wrote: Hi Hexenadler,
Since Nick and Hank flt out told Renard about Wemlinger all three knew. Nick tried to warn the Marshalls, but Renard blew Nick off and left the Marshalls to die.
New Guy
All the more reason why I'm hoping Renard meets his maker this season.
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - jsgrimm45 - 11-11-2015
(11-11-2015, 06:21 AM)New Guy Wrote:Just for the debate I also looked at season 2 with the FBI not wanting help with that case and were killed. The same now the Fed's don't see the local PD as skilled as they are so they pay no attention to their warning. The Marshalls only saw a small man with two of them no problem. Renard has no control of them Nick warns them they fail to listen. Renard calls in a threat on the the guy to force them to get more help but to late.(11-11-2015, 05:53 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:Hi Hexenadler,(11-10-2015, 06:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Was Wemlinger provoked by Hank and Nick into attacking the marshals? Did they physically and mentally push him to the brink where he felt he had to retaliate?
Wemlinger was a ticking time bomb and a murderous fanatic waiting to explode regardless of the circumstances. Nick and Hank both knew it.
Since Nick and Hank flt out told Renard about Wemlinger all three knew. Nick tried to warn the Marshalls, but Renard blew Nick off and left the Marshalls to die.
New Guy
I'm thinking the gov underground group needs to be better at some way taking these cases. They know what is going on so where are they? They want Grimm's for this reason and they know wesen are out there. So now the question is are they only tasked with this new wesen group and who is running the group? We know now it wasn't Chavez. Question now when will we see the head person?
RE: S5E02 - Clear and Wesen Danger - HellaShelle - 11-11-2015
(11-11-2015, 06:21 AM)New Guy Wrote:(11-11-2015, 05:53 AM)Hexenadler Wrote:Hi Hexenadler,(11-10-2015, 06:12 PM)irukandji Wrote: Was Wemlinger provoked by Hank and Nick into attacking the marshals? Did they physically and mentally push him to the brink where he felt he had to retaliate?
Wemlinger was a ticking time bomb and a murderous fanatic waiting to explode regardless of the circumstances. Nick and Hank both knew it.
Since Nick and Hank flat out told Renard about Wemlinger all three knew. Nick tried to warn the Marshalls, but Renard blew Nick off and left the Marshalls to die.
New Guy
I honestly didn't see any of this when I watched. Renard knew the suspect was Wessen, but they deal with Wessen all the time. When Nick confirmed it, he did call in the "death threat" so that security would be beefed up; unfortunately, the follow through with that didn't come soon enough.
If I'm remembering correctly, Renard/Hank/Wu only had the suspicion that the suspect was Wessen at first, then Nick confirmed, then Renard called in the "death threat." At no point in that scenario did Renard know that the suspect [i]knew[i/] that anyone else knew that he was Wessen and up until that point, he hadn't been violent with anyone else, correct? He hadn't given any indication that he would do anything in retaliation for the charges other than call his lawyer, right?
I agree that he should've taken precautions immediately, especially once the other jurisdiction said they were coming for him, but I don't think he simply didn't care what happened. It's not in his best interest for a Wessen suspect to kill a bunch of people and escape police custody either; it leaves everyone involved exposed to further investigation and questioning. What's more, Nick could've been way quieter about it, rather than tip off the suspect; instead, he could've delayed the suspect's being moved until the security was beefed up or pulled one of the officers to the side to give that warning rather than do it in front of Wemlinger or something like that.