(03-23-2015, 03:37 PM)syscrash Wrote: With Juliette a hexenbiest for them to work. Nick will have to abandon his male attitude of "i'm not a man unless I protect my girlfriend". He has to adjust to having a girlfriend that not only can protect herself but can protect him. Nick strikes me as someone who would be offended if Juliette offered to pay for dinner.
Take for instance Juliette just finished mopping up the floor with Adalind. If that was Hank they would have been high fiving each other. But with Juliette he doesn't even acknowledge her abilities. if it had of been me coming in the house and seeing all the knives in the wall. I would have been concerned but after finding out my girlfriend had that kind of power. There would have been high fives all the way around. If it was me we would be an unstoppable duo. The Next case we would be side by side going after whoever. I guess that is why I like Kelly so much. When she dominated Meisner taking control, then demanding from the pilots that she was in charge. What did she say I don't trust anyone I can't kill. With a mom like that what happened to Nick. But then Kelly's sister raised Nick.

(03-23-2015, 03:37 PM)syscrash Wrote: Before Juliette became a hexenbiest she showed she has no problem exacting extreme violence. I mean clock a guy in the head with an iron skillet then kick him in the nuts. That is not someone I would want to pissof. In Tribunal she shot the first guy without blinking or hesitation.

As a hexenbiest she is losing all fear to the point where she is getting a snarky attitude. What did she tell the manticore "maybe he should come home and find you dead". But the best was "Bring it on bitch". juliette is becoming like Trubel. What did the detective say about Trubel cutting Weston head off. "My daughter would have been freaking out". The same with Juliette we have never seen her freak out about anything. Seeing Rosale woge freaked her but she came right back.

I just hope they don't make Juliette go n offense like Adalind. Keep her as a defensive character like Nick. But then I am one of the people who would love to see Adalind pull in her claws. Mainly because she is so lousy at being a villain. Also don't start dressing her in black or leather. She is not a super hero.

(03-23-2015, 04:27 PM)Hexenadler Wrote: [quote='speakeasy' pid='11296' dateline='1427148885']

Quote:Then there's the Captain, my all-around favorite character on Grimm. He seems dangerous, but has a conscience, I think. I feel there's hope for him. So perhaps Juliette can infuse enough of her innate fine character into this new form and emerge a hybrid Hexenbiest who can be a force to be reckoned with, but also has the ability to empathize.

That's the best possible route they can take with her character, IMO. Enough aspects of Juliette's original mindset could remain, albeit filtered through a Hexenbiest's darker nature and only visible in pivotal dramatic moments, and/or private scenes between herself and Nick.

(03-23-2015, 05:05 PM)speakeasy Wrote: So, my logic collapses if I accept that premise and I now have to admit there's no possibility that all Hexenbiests are inherently kind of selfish and bad. .

(03-23-2015, 05:05 PM)speakeasy Wrote: I left off one important Hexenbiest from my list and that was Diana. I place my trust in Kelly's belief that the child will a source of great good or great evil depending on who raises her, and that she must not be raised in the castle. So, my logic collapses if I accept that premise and I now have to admit there's no possibility that all Hexenbiests are inherently kind of selfish and bad. .

(03-23-2015, 09:11 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: Now we are into the nature vs. nurture debate. Is it possible that the Hexanbiests we have seen are evil only because of a cultural bias they are raised by. If so why would Juliette have a 'dark nature' just because she becomes a Hexan? I think this is something the writers may have over looked.

Also though they have not shown a lot of Elizabeth I am not sure she is evil either. Evil is rarely self sacrificing and she saved Sean in a way that risked herself.

(03-24-2015, 06:38 AM)speakeasy Wrote:

(03-23-2015, 09:11 PM)Samsarilian Wrote: Now we are into the nature vs. nurture debate. Is it possible that the Hexanbiests we have seen are evil only because of a cultural bias they are raised by. If so why would Juliette have a 'dark nature' just because she becomes a Hexan? I think this is something the writers may have over looked.......Also though they have not shown a lot of Elizabeth I am not sure she is evil either. Evil is rarely self sacrificing and she saved Sean in a way that risked herself.

I'll play the contrarian for now and submit that the traits of the Hexenbiest wesen are such that they often use manipulation, bullying, and revenge as ways of getting along in the world. They are feared by most other wesen (even Monroe it seems). Rosalee has stated that humans don't normally form romantic attachments to Hexenbiests, presumably because of their cold and often treacherous natures. They seem to have a reputation for untruthfulness. Imo, this translates into a being who is driven by self-interest, a way of operating that generally precludes the consideration of others in its effects.

So, how does an individual whose interior makeup contains these qualities participate in a relationship that demands the consideration of both to work? By drawing on one's human side, not allowing the wesen self to dominate, I guess. Sure, it's possible. But it would be enormously difficult for the Hexenbiest to go against its true essence on a routine basis. That was my original objection to Juliette's conversion. I now accept the change and rely on her better angels to direct her actions.

I'm completely puzzled by Diana as Hexenbiest and the chosen one.

(03-24-2015, 07:16 AM)busyizzy Wrote: I wouldn't feel this way if she had turned to Rosalee for help at the beginning and not Sean/Henrietta, but they are "in the door" now, and Juliette is already showing a manipulative side as she did when putting Nick on the spot with her "kiss me" routine. I mean, I wouldn't kiss my bf if he had a mouth full of crushed oreo cookies...why would I kiss a Hexenbiest in full woge? That was a no-win for Nick, and Juliette had to know this.

(03-24-2015, 07:16 AM)busyizzy Wrote: I do think there is a natural vs nuture (@Samsarilian) thing going on here, but I don't think what @speakeasy said is completely at odds to that:
1. It is natural for any living organism who may be more powerful than those around it to want to try to dominate or manipulate. Adalind and her mother are prime examples of that. Adalind learned many behaviors from her mother, including intimidation of other Wesen and that she was on her own when she lost her powers. I figured if Kelly hadn't killed Catherine, eventually Adalind would have for her complete rejection;
2. A well-nurtured environment could ensure number 1 is put into context and the uses for this power be focused for the good; human nature--more than another other being--will ensure it won't always be for good and Wesen are still human beings but with a beast spirit; and
3. A being can have a good nature and be made darker or more self-absorbed due to heartbreak, illness, fear, anger, other personal experiences, etc. Many of the old grudges (Blutbad/Bauerschwein, Hatfields/McCoys, et al) were created because someone did something to another and the negative feelings and cycle were perpetuated.

In conclusion, Juliette may be someone with a naturally good nature, who was originally nurtured in a good environment. However, her authentic power has shifted and she's now being nurtured (sort of a new birth) by another Hexenbiest, about whose background we know nothing other than she's manipulative and not loyal. Further, Juliette has opened herself to depending on Sean Renard who is still an unknown and, if everyone would just remember, tried to kill Nick and Aunt Marie until he figured he could "use" Nick. Juliette's character is a total unknown at this point.

(03-24-2015, 08:25 AM)speakeasy Wrote:

(03-24-2015, 07:16 AM)busyizzy Wrote: I do think there is a natural vs nuture (@Samsarilian) thing going on here, but I don't think what @speakeasy said is completely at odds to that:
1. It is natural for any living organism who may be more powerful than those around it to want to try to dominate or manipulate. Adalind and her mother are prime examples of that. Adalind learned many behaviors from her mother, including intimidation of other Wesen and that she was on her own when she lost her powers. I figured if Kelly hadn't killed Catherine, eventually Adalind would have for her complete rejection;
2. A well-nurtured environment could ensure number 1 is put into context and the uses for this power be focused for the good; human nature--more than another other being--will ensure it won't always be for good and Wesen are still human beings but with a beast spirit; and
3. A being can have a good nature and be made darker or more self-absorbed due to heartbreak, illness, fear, anger, other personal experiences, etc. Many of the old grudges (Blutbad/Bauerschwein, Hatfields/McCoys, et al) were created because someone did something to another and the negative feelings and cycle were perpetuated.

In conclusion, Juliette may be someone with a naturally good nature, who was originally nurtured in a good environment. However, her authentic power has shifted and she's now being nurtured (sort of a new birth) by another Hexenbiest, about whose background we know nothing other than she's manipulative and not loyal. Further, Juliette has opened herself to depending on Sean Renard who is still an unknown and, if everyone would just remember, tried to kill Nick and Aunt Marie until he figured he could "use" Nick. Juliette's character is a total unknown at this point.

The nature vs. nurture debate continues to this day. I get the feeling from postings by Samsarilian and you that you both fall into the nurture side of the spectrum as having the most influence on the formation of a person's character. So does Kelly and the others, evidently. Guess I do, too, but in this case, can't escape feeling that of all possible wesen and, as you pointed out, given the source as Adalind's line, - the Hexenbiest in Juliette would fight hardest to win an internal battle for dominance. Should be intriguing to see how it all plays out; one thing we can't complain about in the journey we take with Grimm is that it's predictable.

But it's also fun to discuss events, and although I remain skeptical about N and J's chances for survival as a couple, I'll continue to do the only real thing we fans can do, and that's hoping for the best.