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+--- Thread: Grimmness & Weseness & Magicks, Oh My! (/Thread-Grimmness-Weseness-Magicks-Oh-My)
Grimmness & Weseness & Magicks, Oh My! - busyizzy - 12-03-2014
This post was conceived after reading @elkhound 's post about Nick having interacted with the tse-tse fly. Two questions and observations re: Nick's hearing and zombieness.
#1: When Nick lost his Grimmness, does it make sense to you that he lost some speed and agility? I don't think the extra cone in Nick's eye would affect his hearing or his agility. I think the extra cone is just one Grimm trait. We've really never seen Nick as a regular human, but I kind of figure he was a bad @ss cop even before he got his Grimm on. Then...BAM...he loses his Grimmness and needs help with everything and is not as good in a fight. Perhaps the writers wanted to make him appear "less than" without his Grimmness?
#2: Do you think other Grimms coming into contact with various Wesen could potentially have affected their "powers" as well? Aunt Marie and Kelly had done their Grimm thing for 30-40 years before Nick was born. The doctor said Marie's body was covered in wounds, but she was amazingly strong and alert for someone who was in the last throes. Also, Kelly could move as silently and as quickly as Spiderman. Wouldn't it make sense to assume each Grimm is a little different based on their Wesen experiences...that they develop some sensory anomalies or powers because of them?
Anyway...just curious what you guys think.
RE: Grimmness - Lou - 12-03-2014
Good idea for a thread Izzy.
Most of this has been covered in various posts but I don't think we ever tried to combine it all into one place.
Some of the thoughts that I found myself agreeing with is that when you become a Grimm, a lot of changes occur to you.
The number one thing is that you can see Wesson in their first stage of the Woge. Just recently we learned that Nick has extra cones in his eyes. and we assume he was born with these. but they obviously didn't work until he inherited his Grimmness. It would be interesting to have Trubel's and Josh's eyes examined.
Another change is that you become stronger, faster, and just a better fighter. I think Nick was just a good cop before, like most cops he probably didn't get into hand-to-hand death matches on a regular basis. Perhaps the Grimmness just enhanced his fighting skills. but i think it completely added a new layer. The most convincing argument for that is Trubel. We have seen her take on 2 Wesson at once. Well, we didn't see that but it was inferred. Anyway, that was quite the accomplishment for a young girl. And then the fight with the Wesson in the park - Trubel had some pretty good moves. Now later on she does admit to belonging to gym for a while. but still I don't think her fighting skills were just "enhanced" but that she inheireted them.
My other argument is Nick's skills with medieval weapons, such as the cross bow. I don't believe they have courses in those at the police academy. We know Nick has done a little self-training with them in the woods. but he has become remarkably adept with them.
Another set of Grimm attributes is his "metabolism". Rosalie has pointed out that whenever he is given a potion or poison, his body reacts differently than normal humans. For the most part he seems to be partially immune to poisons and potions . Obviously this is a very important trait for a Grimm.
When Nick lost his Grimmness, he lost all of these attributes.
His other attribute is his super hearing which is not a standard feature of the Grimm. He developed that after being blinded by the bug-guy. I think it was a reaction of his Grimm metabolism to the toxin. And he has retained it. But it did go away ( I think) when he wasn't a Grimm.
The Zombie thing is more of a side effect. although it has helped him hold his breath underwater. again it was more of a reaction of his Grimmness to a toxin. And again I think it went away when he wasn't a Grimm.
As far as your question 2 goes, it really hasn't been explored in the show. Well, we hardly ever see other Grimms. But i would say its possible and plausible. Nick has been a Grimm for only 4 seasons (not sure how long that is in real time). And already has two extra powers. You would think that Grimms who have been at it longer would have acquired some too. But it might be really rare for Grimms to survive toxic attacks. The only reason Nick survived the bug-guy and the Zombie guy was that he had help from Rosalee. And as far as we know, Nick is the only Grimm in history to have Wesson friends.
Totally irrelevant thought: In Japan there is that myth of the blind archer. Perhaps he was a Grimm who lost his sight to a bug-guy.
RE: Grimmness - syscrash - 12-03-2014
It seems that wessen strength and agility increase when they woge. As in season 3 PTZD when Monroe told Renard not to take on Nick until they woge.
To have Grimm's have their abilities on all of the time and wessen only have their abilities when the woge does not make sense. Especially since this is suppose to be a secrete. Having Grimm's able to turn it on and off would keep Nick from throwing a suspect across the room by accident thus exposing his secrete. Take Nicks super hearing, it only seems to kick in when wessen are involved, or at the minimum only when Nick needs it. Other then that he could hear all the conversations around him. It makes more sense to say Grimm's do have a form of Woge where all their powers kick in. It would explain why when his Grimm' is suppressed his powers are suppressed. It would also explain why in "HIghway of Tears" once his Grimm comes back he has his super hearing. Even more once he is a full Grimm, he now has the strength to break away and ripe the other guys tongue out.
RE: Grimmness - busyizzy - 12-03-2014
(12-03-2014, 10:54 AM)Lou Wrote: Another set of Grimm attributes is his "metabolism". Rosalie has pointed out that whenever he is given a potion or poison, his body reacts differently than normal humans. For the most part he seems to be partially immune to poisons and potions . Obviously this is a very important trait for a Grimm.
As far as your question 2 goes, it really hasn't been explored in the show. Well, we hardly ever see other Grimms. But i would say its possible and plausible. Nick has been a Grimm for only 4 seasons (not sure how long that is in real time). And already has two extra powers. You would think that Grimms who have been at it longer would have acquired some too. But it might be really rare for Grimms to survive toxic attacks. The only reason Nick survived the bug-guy and the Zombie guy was that he had help from Rosalee. And as far as we know, Nick is the only Grimm in history to have Wesson friends.
Totally irrelevant thought: In Japan there is that myth of the blind archer. Perhaps he was a Grimm who lost his sight to a bug-guy.
Okay...the metabolism point is one I'd forgotten. Speed, dexterity, and ability to push poisons/toxins out of your body can all be related to metabolism. Perhaps there is some release of hormone--adrenaline or cortisol or other natural steroid--that Grimms secrete that also affects strength.
I'm not sure I buy into the concept that Grimms can't survive toxic attacks. I cannot imagine that Aunt Marie or Kelly haven't be totally inundated by different types of venoms, toxins, and other poisons during their time as Grimms. I almost wonder if that was why Marie was still so strong even after chemo....she's just flat out immune to toxins. Chemo is a poison after all.
If the Grimm writers...this second set...finds it difficult to find more Grimm fairy tales to tell on the show, they could always explore the myths, urban legends, and other folk tales. As Aunt Marie said..."the stories; they're real." It would also be fun to explore things like the Yeti, the archer, even the hobbit. Haha. Wasn't really a ring...it was a key!
syscrash Wrote:It makes more sense to say Grimm's do have a form of Woge where all their powers kick in.
That is a great theory, but have the writers given us enough info to support it? After all, Nick didn't even know he was a Grimm when he saw Adalind and the Wesen in the police station woge the first time. Monroe also said Nick looks the same, it's just that his eyes are black empty pools (extra cone, maybe).
I also think that Grimms and Wesen are completely in control of their strength, agility, etc. If they couldn't control their strength in woge, their offspring might not survive. I think control of any newfound knowledge, strength, or skill is found through practice and repetition. Isn't that one reason why Monroe goes to Wesen support group, does Pilates, meditates, and is a vegan? To control what he is?
Really great discussion though. Makes me wonder what all Kelly has been introduced to and if Josh is going to discover a "latent" Grimmness. After all, Nick became a Grimm well into adulthood.
RE: Grimmness - speakeasy - 12-04-2014
I think Nick has a very slow heart rate because of his zombie infection, too. So he would need less oxygen than normal, hence the ability to stay underwater longer. A more efficient use of oxygen would also increase his overall physical strength. On the metabolism side of the equation, I think it fits in with busyizzy's second question well. Do a Grimm's experiences affect his or her personal abilities? It follows that an individual Grimm would be affected by his or her encounters with various wesen, etc. Those parts of the Grimm attributes needed for handling each wesen experience would be brought into play and sharpened by the number of times they're used. (So far, I've been impressed by all of the Grimms we've seen, but Kelly's fighting skills stand out for me.)
But increased intuition, or internal knowing, seems to be part of Kelly's perception (aka Grimmness) that Diana has the potential to do great good or evil, depending on how she is raised. Does the ability to perceive an abstract reality that others are not aware of constitute part of being a Grimm?
This conversation has reminded me of something I have been wondering about Diana. Think it's been discussed before now, but I think Diana is carrying some Grimm traits in her genetic makeup because of Nick's biting Adalind's tongue and her ingesting some of his blood. It would explain Kelly's immediate attraction to the child. She might be family. This is so 'out there' that I might be overlooking something or reading too much into things.
RE: Grimmness - busyizzy - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 07:06 AM)speakeasy Wrote: On the metabolism side of the equation, I think it fits in with busyizzy's second question well. Do a Grimm's experiences affect his or her personal abilities? It follows that an individual Grimm would be affected by his or her encounters with various wesen, etc. Those parts of the Grimm attributes needed for handling each wesen experience would be brought into play and sharpened by the number of times they're used. (So far, I've been impressed by all of the Grimms we've seen, but Kelly's fighting skills stand out for me.)
But increased intuition, or internal knowing, seems to be part of Kelly's perception (aka Grimmness) that Diana has the potential to do great good or evil, depending on how she is raised. Does the ability to perceive an abstract reality that others are not aware of constitute part of being a Grimm?
This conversation has reminded me of something I have been wondering about Diana. Think it's been discussed before now, but I think Diana is carrying some Grimm traits in her genetic makeup because of Nick's biting Adalind's tongue and her ingesting some of his blood. It would explain Kelly's immediate attraction to the child. She might be family. This is so 'out there' that I might be overlooking something or reading too much into things.
I don't think that's "out there" at all...it's a great observation. Diana is attracted to Kelly AND to the locket with a picture of Nick in it. I also wonder if Elizabeth hasn't engineered a coup d'etat in her little potion pot. Elizabeth recognized something, during her study of the Adalind's get-my-Hexenbiest-back spell, when she mentioned Diana was even more special or valuable than she thought. Later, she tells Rosalee to "use one less drop than last time" on the body-switching spell for Juliette before she does the deed with Nick.
If Grimms can pick up attributes from Wesen, doesn't it then seem logical that Wesen can pick up attributes from Grimms? After all, we're talking about Magicks.
AND
Kind of makes you wonder if Diana (who MIGHT then have Royal, Wesen, and Grimm attributes) and a future Nickiette baby (who could also have Wesen and Grimm attributes) wouldn't have parallel or complementary lives or something?! If Capt Renard wants Nick on his side, couldn't Elizabeth also want someone by Diana's side in future?
RE: Grimmness - Lou - 12-04-2014
Wait a second, you guys seem to have gone a little off-topic.
Not that I mind. but i just thought someone had to be the responsible adult here and bring it up.
Now, I don't think its too far off to think that Wesson powers are only available during the full Woge. They have claws, teeth, fangs, tusks, and tentacles that are only available during full Woge. so it can be extrapolated that any other abilities they have are only available during full Woge. I have tried to think of exceptions and the only one that i have come up with is the Muse, who was already attracting Nick after just a touch when she hadn't Woged yet. ( i think there was an explanation for that in the episode , however) There may even be other exceptions. Maybe one of the best is that Monroe seems to have his super nose even when not in Woge. But I still like the theory that for most Wessons, most of the time they don't have Wesson abilities when they are in human form.
Ok, at this point I can't remember who brought up that Nick spotted Adalind and the Wesson in the police station, before he even knew he was a Grimm. That was in the pilot - and there were a lot of little details the writers got "wrong" in the pilot. Although the Wesson in the police station was probably under some stress and could have accidentally Woged. That has happened a lot on this show. Not sure what was the story with Adalind, though. maybe she just remembered she hadn't put change in the parking meter?
And I'm glad someone brought up the "one drop less than last time" thing. I also find that very suspicious. But I have no idea what it means. And it might not mean anything.
RE: Grimmness - Lou - 12-04-2014
I was looking for something else when I found this. It touches this topic so I thought I would link the thread to this thread. Also its a pretty old post - so its interesting to see how far we have come.
http://grimmforum.com/forum/Thread-Speculation-on-Grimm-Woge-Undead-Edition?highlight=speculation
RE: Grimmness - busyizzy - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 11:42 AM)Lou Wrote: Wait a second, you guys seem to have gone a little off-topic. Not that I mind. but i just thought someone had to be the responsible adult here and bring it up.
Now, Papa Lou, I don't think we've gotten off topic.
This post was about Grimmness and whether or not the interaction with Wesen, spells, toxins, poisons, etc. could change/enhance Grimmness. That very naturally begged the question of...could it also work in reverse? Could Wesen pick up attributes from Grimms via contact, blood, spells, etc.? And if it could work in reverse, what might happen during fertilization or gestation when all these Magicks or attributes are mixed in some form. This thread has been like the ABC model of forum evolution. 
Lou Wrote:Now, I don't think its too far off to think that Wesson powers are only available during the full Woge. They have claws, teeth, fangs, tusks, and tentacles that are only available during full Woge. so it can be extrapolated that any other abilities they have are only available during full Woge. I have tried to think of exceptions and the only one that i have come up with is the Muse, who was already attracting Nick after just a touch when she hadn't Woged yet. ( i think there was an explanation for that in the episode , however) There may even be other exceptions. Maybe one of the best is that Monroe seems to have his super nose even when not in Woge. But I still like the theory that for most Wessons, most of the time they don't have Wesson abilities when they are in human form.
I agree full on that a Wesen's powers are magnified--with all the attributes you mentioned and more--in full woge, however, there are way too many examples of Wesen smelling or sensing one another without being in woge. Certainly Monroe (as well as other Blutbads, Fuchsbau, Bauerschwein, Coyotl, and even Eisbieber) have all used their sense of smell when not in part or full woge. There have also been comments that Wesen recognize Wesen without wogeing....and....let's not forget Musai, Naiad, and Ziegevolk (who are very influential to humans and Wesen even when not in woge). There was also one bird creature who had great eye sight or hearing when they weren't in woge.
I think I was making the point that Wesen are more in control during woge than what was stated...as if they didn't know their own strength. I do think their abilities amp up in woge, but I believe that they can't control them....two entirely different things IMHO.
Lou Wrote:Ok, at this point I can't remember who brought up that Nick spotted Adalind and the Wesson in the police station, before he even knew he was a Grimm. That was in the pilot - and there were a lot of little details the writers got "wrong" in the pilot. Although the Wesson in the police station was probably under some stress and could have accidentally Woged. That has happened a lot on this show. Not sure what was the story with Adalind, though. maybe she just remembered she hadn't put change in the parking meter?
Okay...I wasn't clear here, I think...it's not about why or when the Wesen woged, it's about the fact that Nick can see them when they do. The argument here and in the link you provided (thanks for that by the way...some good stuff there) is that Nick will either have a woge or a quickening. Perhaps he will, however, my point re: the first Wesen sightings in the Pilot was not that the Wesen woged, it was that Nick could see them and he didn't even know he was a Grimm. He had not woged. I think if a woged Wesen woke Wick...I mean Nick...up in the middle of the night, he would see the Wesen as Wesen...no wogeing necessary.
'Lou Wrote:And I'm glad someone brought up the "one drop less than last time" thing. I also find that very suspicious. But I have no idea what it means. And it might not mean anything.
I have no idea either, but I wonder if that contributes to Juliette's stomach pains when her body switch began to move back to her own form. These pains were not shared by either Adalind or Elizabeth who also used the body switch formula. We also know, because she got pregnant, Adalind was not on birth control. So...when Juliette became a body double to Adalind, did that make her vulnerable to pregnancy?
Lastly, and in response to the last post you made with the thread link to "Speculation on Grimm Woge," I think it's possible that as Nick is evolving there could be a woge of some sort. However, since that post was created, we found out that Wesen can see Grimms anytime they're woged, not because of an extra sense but because Nick's eyes look like black holes of emptiness. Also within that thread, there was some discussion over whether there's one or two woge levels. I still go with two woge levels because Juliette and Hank can't see Blutbads or Fuschbau or Eisbiebers when they are in partial woge. Even if it's not stated, it's there in evidence. I mean Bud woged in front of Juliette multiple times, and she couldn't see that; she just thought Bud and wife were weird for spying on her house. There's also the Wesen Council rule about not FULL wogeing in front of humans like the bank robbers did. So many of the "prey-like" Wesen (beavers, mice, sheep, etc.) frequently woge when stressed/scared. No one sees them, and the Wesen Council would have their hands full going after people because they were stressed.
Whew...no more coffee for me this late at night.
RE: Grimmness - Lou - 12-04-2014
@ Izzy, Wow, you have really thought this out. Good job!
But your discussion on a Wessons abilities were very clear. And i agree with your conclusions, now.
I'm also still thinking that Grimm's don't Woge. Maybe its like someone suggested that a Grimm's powers come on when in the presence of a Wesson.
Something else that has been mentioned in this thread that I have an opinion on. I don't think the Zombie thing is a power. Its more like a side effect or maybe a symptom of a disease.